Testing 1.41: Hungary & Ottomans 1419-1500

[unmerged(48371)]

ok 'cause in 1.39, i've seen lots of time mameluks keep being alive, because it seems like ottoman "fear" them. But maybe in 1.41, it won't happen again ;-)

 

[unmerged(29041)]

7) your events of Janissary are too strong, the loosing of factories and the decreasing of inovate, really really sucks.

No they are not. I already demonstrated that they have no significant effect before around 1750, by which point it is irrelevant if they have not made it yet. For the Ottos, the first century is crucial. They have to have made it by 1520. I was not talking of giving them 1000 points extra of land technology, but of placing them at land four at the start of the game and see how they do.
The Balkans should be a liability for the Ottomans, they should get all their manpower and money from the East. The problem is when Bosnia sits on top of 40k men, and Serbia does the same, and MOldavia and Wallachia. If the Ottos get into wars with several of them at the same time as with Hungary they have a hard time, as we would.

 

[Garbon]

ok 'cause in 1.39, i've seen lots of time mameluks keep being alive, because it seems like ottoman "fear" them. But maybe in 1.41, it won't happen again ;-)

I don't think it is that they fear them, it is that the Ottos really don't have the ability to take out the Mams. They are stretched thin by wars in Greece and then the Mams always end up in large alliances that make it difficult for the Ottomans to make significant gains against. Also as reported earlier, the revoltrisks for the Mams should be turned down slightly to prevent all the rampant defections.

 

[joriandrake]

The Ottos need to win their wars consistently at the beginning of the game. It is crucial for them because a couple of lost wars can push them back 50 years easily. If they lose several wars they can be hampered forever. This cannot be fixed by events or by changing their relations with other nations.
Another handicap in the game is the allies. While Hungary can have several strong nations to ally, the usual allies of the Ottos suck big time, and bad allies can make you lose your wars by conceding warscore to your enemies. When the Ottos get a good ally it works against them, because it is usually a strong Ak Koyunlu that blocks their path south for a long time.
Recomendation:
1) Make the Balkans poorer and with lower manpower (Serbia, Hungary, Bosnia, Albania, Croatia). They all have to die and they should also be a liability for the Ottos once taken.
2) Make the initial DPs of the ottos really good (offensive and land especially), and reduce later by event that has a size trigger.
3) Give them a big boost in land technology. It can also be reduced by events with a size trigger
4) make them defender of the faith at the beginning. It is historically consistent and it will help with the initial wars. They are bound to lose it in a few years.
5) Reduce their bbs if AI. These prevents gang attacks which are a likely cause of Otto failure.
6) Make events for sunni neighbors that sink their relations to the ottos. The Ottos had no friends, and they need to expand in all directions. So if you hold a core of the Ottos and you are sunni, then you should be in very bad terms with them.

Helping them in the first decades will have a snowball effect

if you do this, then you 'fell of the horse on the other side', what means an ahistorical strong OE and an ahistorical low manpower/tax balkans + Hungary

 

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@fodoron: ok, but inovate decreasing + the loosing of too much manufacture, is a bit too much (according to me), cause OTT will have a monstruous BB, and will be grind between russia, and austria mainly, and this will be unhistorical, i've never seen serbia with such an army 20k max, like the others if they only got 1 province. If you take them by surprize with a leader, they die easily, and if you occupe, their lands by assieging them, the troops they built will surely been defeated, i've never have any trouble in conquering balkans territories with ottoman, the only problem is BB.

@garbon: yeah mameluks loose, sometimes provinces, due to defection. But with so much lose of stability, and so much events exalting revoltrisk, it's normal. But yeah OTT cannot handle a so much big country, with AI settings, only take 1 or 2 proince at the time, a war every 5/10 years ...

@jorian: i feel the same about balkans, but i guess reducing manpower is a good idea, they're small states they cannot do great armies.

 

[sabular]

@fodoron: ok, but inovate decreasing + the loosing of too much manufacture, is a bit too much (according to me), cause OTT will have a monstruous BB, and will be grind between russia, and austria mainly, and this will be unhistorical, i've never seen serbia with such an army 20k max, like the others if they only got 1 province. If you take them by surprize with a leader, they die easily, and if you occupe, their lands by assieging them, the troops they built will surely been defeated, i've never have any trouble in conquering balkans territories with ottoman, the only problem is BB.

The question is however: can the AI Ottoman Empire take the balkans without much trouble? It is also possible for a player contolled Byzantium to take the balkans, but this is definitely not the case for the AI (fortunately)

 

[unmerged(40707)]

In my tests, OE did it right from Moldavia to Magyar including Dalmatia (Transylvania apart - sorry no screen), but Austria + Poland smashed it and border went back to Danube in ~1600 but fair enough and OE did it well in Asia too. Only problem was after conquering Mameluks (~1560) since west to the nile wasn't Mameluks anymore (Genoa + Tunisa + Naples). And OE never DoW Venice (only one defensive war) => Ragusa and islands remained Venetian.

 

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In my tests, OE did it right from Moldavia to Magyar including Dalmatia (Transylvania apart - sorry no screen), but Austria + Poland smashed it and border went back to Danube in ~1600 but fair enough and OE did it well in Asia too. Only problem was after conquering Mameluks (~1560) since west to the nile wasn't Mameluks anymore (Genoa + Tunisa + Naples). And OE never DoW Venice (only one defensive war) => Ragusa and islands remained Venetian.

That's about right. The Ottos should be able to perform like that in about 75% of the games at least. But the problem is that they only seem to succeed in about 30% of the games, or less. I believe that it is the estatistical deviation from having to win several crucial wars in a short window of time.

@Wiande: Once the Ottos are a large country (>30 provinces), they have nothing to fear. Their resources are huge, and they still win or draw most of their wars. When they lose, they usually pay cash or lose one province, rarely two, and almost never more than two. This resiliance carries them to the end of the game, even if they have to move their border with Europeans back a couple of lines, which is very historic, by the way.

 

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@sabular: i don't know why, the AI of OTT can do it in my game, i've just download AGCEEP 1.41, i've played a long time in, 1.39 normal/hard, and no i play in normal/normal as recomended.

@yoda: yeah it seems OTT can't do it with his own shipped, that's a bit ridiculous, moreover, they get navy of all country they've burnt (when they take BYZ they gain lots of ships). Yeah OTT get smashed in the 2nd half of the game by mainly AUT (if they've historicaly developped). There's a huge difference between tech, as AI soon goes on muslims tech ... that's shammy, AI OTT would remain Latin tech in order to resist better, in that way the janissary events seems acceptable ...

@Fodoron: i've seen austria taking all european land of OTT (exept byzance) in 3 wars (they loose approx 10 provinces)


EDIT:
Also in the 2 games i've begun. OTT run on TRE + ARM and annexed the 1st and take half the land of the other, as they got no core on it !!! They don't smash serbia, as hungary is already busy with hussites & venice, that's really shammy (AGCEEP 1.41 normal/normal)

 

[unmerged(40707)]

What I have seen is Austria doesn't go after OE now after Austria regained its Hungarian cores. This explains, to me, the Danube border but I will make further hands-off tests to make my own conclusion.

 

[Garbon]

Ran two more tests to 1531, coward - while writing final papers

Rather small shape for Ottos, a lot of weird land grabs : England in Morea, Venice in Ramazan/Dulkadir area. Smaller Hungary

Ottomans got stuck here because of their past alliance with Kara Koyunlu (that large grey monster). They were finally fighting the Mams at the time of this screenshot. Large grabs by Hungary.

 

[Norrefeldt]

The old AI files are the base for the new ones, so they have been compared to.

its now 1550,
HUN has faced 47 wars from 1419, and has only lost pressburg and banat.
HABS have DOW the last 40 years (8 times).
conclusion , HUN is invincible
nations that DOW HUN have wasted vast resources in cash
recommendation , unsure , is it quality,? their income is too high?
Any answers from the top modders??

Quality has a huge impact on moral early on, so it matters a great deal. The Transylvanian mine might also be too rich, and I remember the protests you mention.

Toio's image shows something I often see in my games: the revolt risk that Egypt picks up at every event causes it to lose everything from Aleppo to Sinai and ending all Ottoman ambitions in the area.

I have seen this too, and when it happens it makes AKK too strong early on.

Not about Hungary, but is there anything we can do about the Ottos diploannexing Crimea? Beyond the history bit, it also causes problems as the Ottos keep basing their troops there, in my games.

Not easliy, as OE get Kerch by historical event when Thrace is taken, and sometimes they get a border through Abkhazia too. The AI spends money on raising relations for the DA, so lowering them by event only delays it, and is costly for the AI. But I have also seen this in my tests above. I have no idea for this one right now, apart from not making them vassals.

the OE - crimea is the same problem as the SPA-POR ones. What did norre do about these?

Relations were lowered, which in the best cases leads to no vassalisation. If they do become vassals the SPA AI will spend money on POR, but they can afford it and actually help the AI for poor POR perform early on.

The Ottos need to win their wars consistently at the beginning of the game. It is crucial for them because a couple of lost wars can push them back 50 years easily. If they lose several wars they can be hampered forever. This cannot be fixed by events or by changing their relations with other nations.
Another handicap in the game is the allies. While Hungary can have several strong nations to ally, the usual allies of the Ottos suck big time, and bad allies can make you lose your wars by conceding warscore to your enemies. When the Ottos get a good ally it works against them, because it is usually a strong Ak Koyunlu that blocks their path south for a long time.
Recomendation:
1) Make the Balkans poorer and with lower manpower (Serbia, Hungary, Bosnia, Albania, Croatia). They all have to die and they should also be a liability for the Ottos once taken.
2) Make the initial DPs of the ottos really good (offensive and land especially), and reduce later by event that has a size trigger.
3) Give them a big boost in land technology. It can also be reduced by events with a size trigger
4) make them defender of the faith at the beginning. It is historically consistent and it will help with the initial wars. They are bound to lose it in a few years.
5) Reduce their bbs if AI. These prevents gang attacks which are a likely cause of Otto failure.
6) Make events for sunni neighbors that sink their relations to the ottos. The Ottos had no friends, and they need to expand in all directions. So if you hold a core of the Ottos and you are sunni, then you should be in very bad terms with them.

Helping them in the first decades will have a snowball effect

Yes, HUN often have HAb and POL as allies, while OE have no useful ones. From your list 1: HUN is the one they fight, and that conquer nations the OE should take, so I would prefer to start change them. 2: Aren't they quite good already? 3: Good idea, as HUN currently keep up too well, to some reason due to their +1500d land investment by event. 4: Good idea. 5: We could use more cores from start, in order to not have to introduce AI cheats. But BB is sometimes a problem. 6: The +125 standard used for all co-religionists is terrible, and also give strange longdistant and hampering alliances.

 

[Norrefeldt]

CRI become a vassal of OE from the event CRI152060 (1466-1700) that triggers TUR301050, with the result of vassalage, +100 relations and alliance. It might be a better idea to not include the vassalage part.

 

[Garbon]

CRI become a vassal of OE from the event CRI152060 (1466-1700) that triggers TUR301050, with the result of vassalage, +100 relations and alliance. It might be a better idea to not include the vassalage part.

Agreed, although does the event still make sense without it? I've never read the text.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Agreed, although does the event still make sense without it? I've never read the text.

It's:

#-#While Russia managed to overtake the other Khanates of the European steppe in the 16th century, the Khanate of Crimea lasted well into the 1700s. A major reason for this longevity was the support of the Ottoman Empire.

Keeping Crimea alive isn't a prime objective, and having them annexed by OE in the 1500s is worse than that they are killed of 80 years too early by POL, LIT or RUS.

 

[Garbon]

Well, ideally Crimea should annex the Golden Horde, so it would be nice to see it survive. Thus I push that we remove the vassalization as support != vassalization.

 

[Garbon]

Recommended Aggressivness should be WEAKLING.

Can we change the scenario preferences to start with that value?

 

[Norrefeldt]

Can we change the scenario preferences to start with that value?

Yes. We should do that.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

Yes. We should do that.

How?

 

[Garbon]

I think it gets saved in the config.eu...which you "modify" by changing options in game and then starting up a game that way.

I just looked at my options (which I hadn't changed) and although I thought it was auto-set to coward, I've actually been on weakling, so it might be that way already.