Territorial pride

[feye1]

It is a great speech, don't get me wrong, but he was just trying to inspire with propaganda. Here is a picture taken just a few months later of a large number of British troops that apparently didn't get the "never surrender" message. They were rounded up by the Bersaglieri in 1941 (notice the fancy black feathers in their helmets). I know there is a wealth of similar images of Italians surrendering, but I attach this one to make the point that any rational soldier will surrender when placed in a seemingly hopeless situation.

yep, we can laugh about the Italians and their surrendering, but the British and their Allies didn't do much better in Singapore after all..

 

[Ikarases]

It is a great speech, don't get me wrong, but he was just trying to inspire with propaganda. Here is a picture taken just a few months later of a large number of British troops that apparently didn't get the "never surrender" message. They were rounded up by the Bersaglieri in 1941 (notice the fancy black feathers in their helmets). I know there is a wealth of similar images of Italians surrendering, but I attach this one to make the point that any rational soldier will surrender when placed in a seemingly hopeless situation.

yep, we can laugh about the Italians and their surrendering, but the British and their Allies didn't do much better in Singapore after all..

I agree. It has to do something with the famous quote: "History is written by the victors." I suppose. I doubt so many people would be gossiping Italian army, if they were under its firm control...

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think we can all agree that the poles are very brave people.
After all they choose to go to war with the mighty evil german empire.
Over a city and a small piece of land.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

I think we can all agree that the poles are very brave people.
After all they choose to go to war with the mighty evil german empire.
Over a city and a small piece of land.

well they still thought that France and Britain might help them out, they also looked at what happened to Czechoslovakia, and Germany wasn't thought off as too tough compared to the combined might of France and Britain, finally they defeated the soviets, so they felt pretty confident I would say.
Responding to OP, it is not just Axis countries that have territorial pride, nationalist china has it and it is actually fighting an axis country

 

[Loke]

If memory serves me, didnt Poland take territory from Czechoslovakia aswell?

 

[Secret Master]

If memory serves me, didnt Poland take territory from Czechoslovakia aswell?

Yep. A tiny province in HOI3. One province, in fact, that the decision assigns to Poland when the Germans violate Munich.

I had to go relearn my history a bit after trying to figure out how in the Hell Poland was different shape in 1939 than she was in 1936.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

I think it should be limited to:
-Japan
-Finland
-USSR
-Germany, altough many were discouraged due fact their entire invasion was thrown back and they fought on their homeland now, they did fought fanatically in many places on eastern front. On some occasions, Germans might have fought fanatically for a old lamp post on eastern front, while at the same time giving entire towns without a fight on western front.
-British
I don`t know about chinese nations or Poles, what i know, only thing Poland did what France did not do, was fight.

 

[feye1]

I don`t know about chinese nations or Poles, what i know, only thing Poland did what France did not do, was fight.

Please 'tell' that to 100.000 death French soldiers and the ~125.000 that got wounded only during the German operations called Fall Gelb and Fall Rot. Oh and don't forget to speak with their wives.

How on earth people can tell here that countries/soldiers of that time didn't fight. I bet those persons only would shit in their pants and begged for mercy when they had to fight in a real war.

 

[Redhead]

Large parts of the non-frontline troops were 'volunteers' from occupied territories - Poland included. Most of them volunteered since 'volunteer'-troops got larger rations that non-german civilians - most of them switched sides at the first possible occassion as feye already noted.

I see, so it's a misunderstanding on my side. I assumed you meant organized Polish forces, just like the units fighting on the Allies' side. If you mean Polish conscripted into Wehrmacht, then yes, there were many. But my assumption stems from the fact that such people were conscripted (not volunteered) and drafted as Germans, not Polish. I mean the German authorities treated them as Germans. This draft affected people living in the province of Upper Silesia and other German annexed lands. First they were forced to sign so called Volksliste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste), when they signed they were treated as Germans. Refusal to sign could mean deportation to an institution we should not mention here, so Polish authorities (both in exile and underground) advised people to sign it.
As feye1 so kindly remarked to me such draftees generally switched sides at first opportunity. E.g. the 1st Polish Armored Division (which among others liberated part of Netherlands) had many such soldiers first drafted into Wehrmacht, who when captured as POW volunteered to join the Polish Army in the West.

 

[shierholzer]

This draft affected people living in the province of Upper Silesia and other German annexed lands. First they were forced to sign so called Volksliste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste), when they signed they were treated as Germans.

Yep, some were drafted as Volksdeutsche and distributed just like all other draftees. That's not what I meant, though.
There were various 'Ostregimenter' - non-german men who voluteered fighting alongside German troops. Enlisted and NCO were non-german, officers german. Usually men volunteered mainly for benefits like larger rations, free real-estate, no deportations, etc. Most NCOs were local fascists (or other right-wings), who joined for ideological similarity.

 

[sunsterson]

Please 'tell' that to 100.000 death French soldiers and the ~125.000 that got wounded only during the German operations called Fall Gelb and Fall Rot. Oh and don't forget to speak with their wives.

How on earth people can tell here that countries/soldiers of that time didn't fight. I bet those persons only would shit in their pants and begged for mercy when they had to fight in a real war.

They fought for sure, they just sucked at it. And by that I mean there generals and doctrines sucked.

 

[shierholzer]

They fought for sure, they just sucked at it. And by that I mean there generals and doctrines sucked.

Generals and doctrines sucked, yes. Individual french soldiers had the same skill and fighting spirit as everybody else had. Actually most frenchman had more individual skill than their german counterparts - most french units had some combat experience against ill-organzied colonian rebels/ruffians.

 

[Redhead]

Yep, some were drafted as Volksdeutsche and distributed just like all other draftees. That's not what I meant, though.
There were various 'Ostregimenter' - non-german men who voluteered fighting alongside German troops. Enlisted and NCO were non-german, officers german. Usually men volunteered mainly for benefits like larger rations, free real-estate, no deportations, etc. Most NCOs were local fascists (or other right-wings), who joined for ideological similarity.

Well, then we are back at my initial statement. There were no such organized units of Polish soldiers fighting on axis side No Polish Ostregimenter. To my knowledge the Germans didn't even make an effort to organize such troops from Polish till late 1944. Even then - or especially then as anybody could see where the war was heading - the response was minimal.

 

[Secret Master]

Please 'tell' that to 100.000 death French soldiers and the ~125.000 that got wounded only during the German operations called Fall Gelb and Fall Rot. Oh and don't forget to speak with their wives.

How on earth people can tell here that countries/soldiers of that time didn't fight. I bet those persons only would shit in their pants and begged for mercy when they had to fight in a real war.

I missed it before, but I'd prefer it if we didn't discuss defecation in trousers in relation to other members of the community.

That being said, I always have to remind my fellow Americans that the so-called "French surrender" that we always make fun of (seriously, jokes about France surrendering in WWII are legion in around these parts) was part of a larger, illegal change in government that occurred during the collapse of French forces. While debating the armistice, and even while portions of the military and government wanted to retreat to the colonies and continue the fight, the Chamber of Deputies and Senate unconstitutionally voted their own government out of existence and granted dictatorial powers to Petain. In American terms, it would be the same as if reactionary members of Congress, when the capital was threatened, voted in a new President, changed the constitution, and surrendered to the enemy; you'd wake up the next day to find out members of your own government sold you out in violation of the Constitution.

True story: I was teaching for a time at a French culinary institute (had some really smart students who could do amazing things with pastries and entrees), and I was busy reading up on French history for one of my books. Unfamiliar with French pronunciation, I asked the French instructor (who hails from Marseille, I think) to help me pronounce Petain's name correctly. She grew very flustered and angry and asked why I wanted to know such a thing. I had to calm her down and convince her that I was reading up on French history, and that I wasn't a fan of Petain. I just wanted to know how to say his name.

 

[msaaim89]

That's a problem caused by the Yankees dropping 'your government just capitulated'-leaflets since '44.

Is that real or am I too slow to clock on to jokes?

Look closer: http://goo.gl/maps/VeAyB

:laugh:

It is a great speech, don't get me wrong, but he was just trying to inspire with propaganda.

It was a normal speech which didn't make the troops superhuman.

 

[feye1]

I missed it before, but I'd prefer it if we didn't discuss defecation in trousers in relation to other members of the community.

That being said, I always have to remind my fellow Americans that the so-called "French surrender" that we always make fun of (seriously, jokes about France surrendering in WWII are legion in around these parts) was part of a larger, illegal change in government that occurred during the collapse of French forces. While debating the armistice, and even while portions of the military and government wanted to retreat to the colonies and continue the fight, the Chamber of Deputies and Senate unconstitutionally voted their own government out of existence and granted dictatorial powers to Petain. In American terms, it would be the same as if reactionary members of Congress, when the capital was threatened, voted in a new President, changed the constitution, and surrendered to the enemy; you'd wake up the next day to find out members of your own government sold you out in violation of the Constitution.

True story: I was teaching for a time at a French culinary institute (had some really smart students who could do amazing things with pastries and entrees), and I was busy reading up on French history for one of my books. Unfamiliar with French pronunciation, I asked the French instructor (who hails from Marseille, I think) to help me pronounce Petain's name correctly. She grew very flustered and angry and asked why I wanted to know such a thing. I had to calm her down and convince her that I was reading up on French history, and that I wasn't a fan of Petain. I just wanted to know how to say his name.

Sorry for that, but I can't stand people that don't know history and just throw out some disrespectful words. Words mean probably nothing to you, but can mean a lot to me (or vice versa).

And yes, Petain.. from a hero to zero..

 

[shierholzer]

Is that real or am I too slow to clock on to jokes?

Actually that's true.
In February '44 both sides began dropping such leaflets on enemy-held jungles. Neither Yanks, nor Japs had much success, though. '46 the leaflets got true and nobody cared. Most of the Japanese troops being found in the following decades believed they were still at war.

 

[Redhead]

I hesitate to write this because unfortunately I've forgotten the source of it. It might have been Azriel Lorber's "Misguided Weapons", or Brian Perret's "Last Stand", or possibly some other similar book. Anyway, here it goes:
Reportedly research by US Army after WW2 found out that only some 20% of all allied soldiers actually shot at the enemy intending to kill him. The other soldiers just shot in the general direction of the enemy lines, because they could not make themselves to actually kill a human being. Now if the enemy had 40% of such - let's call them warriors - in his units, he was twice more effective in combat. The book I read claimed that this percentage of warriors was much higher in German units than anywhere else. 2 main factors were named - training and attitude. Reportedly German soldiers trained shooting at human sized and shaped targets (silhouettes), while for example British soldiers used circular targets (concentric rings). As to the attitude, the German soldiers saw their service also in terms of sacrifice to Fatherland and thus were more ready to risk their lives. The book also named a third factor promoting this wilingness to kill - hatred, especially caused by an atrocity made by the enemy. That was mostly visible in the Asiatic theater, where Allied soldiers generally didn't have any problems shooting Japanese soldiers, especially after they saw an atrocity like destroyed hospital or something similar.
Now if we follow this train of thought it is plausible that elite units should have better and more realistic training promoting higher combat efficiency. Further, in case of armed forces in exile - it is also plausible that in such case this ability to kill could be higher than in other armed forces if the soldiers had to overcome obstacles to join said armed forces in exile. Then only the real warriors, able and willing to fight, would bother with illegal crossing of borders, avoiding capture and suffering all the associated hardships to join the army and fight.
Note that modern armies actually changed their training after WW2 to be more realistic. Soldiers now train at least with silhouette targets, and more and more using virtual reality. In some militaries soldiers are even desensitized to violence during their basic training. It would further support that the book I read was actually onto something.

 

[sunsterson]

Generals and doctrines sucked, yes. Individual french soldiers had the same skill and fighting spirit as everybody else had. Actually most frenchman had more individual skill than their german counterparts - most french units had some combat experience against ill-organzied colonian rebels/ruffians.

Well, the French soldiers were on average older then Germany's soldiers so that was a factor. I wouldn't say France had more skill then Germany soldiers or vise versa, just France was totally unprepared doctrine wise for the war.

 

[magitsu]

Yes, Redhead. There have been such findings. Related to psychology, thus has appeared in every war. They have studied even as far as US civil war, where some soldiers died with two or more bullets in the barrel. They just skipped the shooting, but did all other maneuvers to not raise suspicion.
Attacking requires the most fortitude. Truck/trains full of booze before op was often needed. Other forms of persuasion included being forced at gunpoint... defending (fear of losing is more apparent) is much easier.