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misterbean

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I am going to butt in here, because I think there is no way to compare Polish willpower and drive to win with Italy's.
Yes, they fought for 3 years. If you can call it fighting. In 1940, they advanced a couple of kilometers into Egypt and then just waited while the British gathered their troops. The Western Desert Force then used about 3 divisions to take over 200,000 men captive. If Rommel hadn't arrived, the Uk would have taken a walk in the park all the way to Tripoli. That's hardly comparable to the dogged Polish defense of Warsaw, where they held out for almost a month, completely surrounded by enemy forces and a superior air force.
 

Ikarases

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French AI with historical troop strength is sometimes even able to save Poland on it's own.

Not necessarily. HPP features historical French OOB and even if French break through weaker German defences (as they were IRL, until troops from Poland were redeployed - read about the Saar Offensive and look at troop numbers), they usualy get thrown back to Maginot line. French AI should always be capable to have enough divisions to man the Maginot line, unlike what's going on with AI French army right now.
 

Loke

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I am going to butt in here, because I think there is no way to compare Polish willpower and drive to win with Italy's.
Yes, they fought for 3 years. If you can call it fighting. In 1940, they advanced a couple of kilometers into Egypt and then just waited while the British gathered their troops. The Western Desert Force then used about 3 divisions to take over 200,000 men captive. If Rommel hadn't arrived, the Uk would have taken a walk in the park all the way to Tripoli. That's hardly comparable to the dogged Polish defense of Warsaw, where they held out for almost a month, completely surrounded by enemy forces and a superior air force.

Youre welcome butting in... lol :)
lets see...
A "couple" of kilometers, how far isit between the border and Sidi Barani 2, 10 or 100kilometers?... Im not sure, enlighten me.
200 000 captives? I thougt it was 115 000...? Where do you get your numbers?(I used wiki as this is general knowledge and im on a tablet atm)

And the rest is apple and pears... :)

You should be careful throwing "facts" around, someone might just believe you and then we have a myth...
 
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feye1

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Not necessarily. HPP features historical French OOB and even if French break through weaker German defences (as they were IRL, until troops from Poland were redeployed - read about the Saar Offensive and look at troop numbers), they usualy get thrown back to Maginot line. French AI should always be capable to have enough divisions to man the Maginot line, unlike what's going on with AI French army right now.

Actually the French troops already withdraw except for a very small force that kept occupy the small area the gained long before any troops from the Polish campaign arrived (yes, Gamelin told the Poles Germany had to withdraw 6 division from Poland to stop the French assault..). The French were afraid to move in further and Gamelin wanted to focus on static warfare till at least 1941. He meant that the equipement of the army, and more specific the air force, was not good enough and that France needed time to gain better and more equipement/planes. Time would work in favor of France.
 

feye1

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I am going to butt in here, because I think there is no way to compare Polish willpower and drive to win with Italy's.
Yes, they fought for 3 years. If you can call it fighting. In 1940, they advanced a couple of kilometers into Egypt and then just waited while the British gathered their troops. The Western Desert Force then used about 3 divisions to take over 200,000 men captive. If Rommel hadn't arrived, the Uk would have taken a walk in the park all the way to Tripoli. That's hardly comparable to the dogged Polish defense of Warsaw, where they held out for almost a month, completely surrounded by enemy forces and a superior air force.

Sure, the Italians weren't the best fighters, we all agree about that. But it's sad how people always talk about the Italians imo, they don't know history that well. Remember they also had to fight a superior air force, a superior ground force (Armoured units, entire mobile army), got beaten by long range artillery which they lacked. The desert made the slow infantry of Italy very vulnerable against motorized and armoured units. They just really lacked any good equipement. Like.. near Beda Fomm they tried several serious attempts to break through the British lines, but every single time they got thrown back and shot to pieces by superior British troops.
 

misterbean

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Youre welcome butting in... lol :)
lets see...
A "couple" of kilometers, how far isit between the border and Sidi Barani 2, 10 or 100kilometers?... Im not sure, enlighten me.
200 000 captives? I thougt it was 130 000...? Where you get your numbers.
And the rest is apple and pears... :)

I believe one US documentary spoke of 70 miles. that is a little over 100 km. Another one says 40 miles (64 km).
As for the numbers of POWs, those include the ones captured all the way to Benghazi. All this, like I said, with 3 divisions and a couple of detached brigades (including the forerunner of the SAS). It was 3-1 odds against them and they just plowed through the opposition. And yes, I know that the Italian artillery and equipment wasn't really up to stuff. that's no excuse. German armour was inferior to their French counterparts during the invasion of France. They still won because of superior doctrine.
It wasn't until they reached Tunisia (after 2 more years of war), that the Italians started putting up a resistance. So you could say that the UK taught Italy how to fight a war.
 

Loke

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Like.. near Beda Fomm they tried several serious attempts to break through the British lines, but every single time they got thrown back and shot to pieces by superior British troops.

There are many more Italian "diamonds", check these out - the battle for Castellorizo , raid on Alexandria, the battle of Nikolayevka... :)
 

misterbean

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I just checked Google Maps. From Sidi Barani to the modern-day border of Egypt is about 40 km (rough visual estimate).
 

Loke

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I believe one US documentary spoke of 70 miles. that is a little over 100 km. Another one says 40 miles (64 km).
As for the numbers of POWs, those include the ones captured all the way to Benghazi. All this, like I said, with 3 divisions and a couple of detached brigades (including the forerunner of the SAS). It was 3-1 odds against them and they just plowed through the opposition. And yes, I know that the Italian artillery and equipment wasn't really up to stuff. that's no excuse. German armour was inferior to their French counterparts during the invasion of France. They still won because of superior doctrine.
It wasn't until they reached Tunisia (after 2 more years of war), that the Italians started putting up a resistance. So you could say that the UK taught Italy how to fight a war.

The 10th army, the one that got beaten in north africa during operation Compass although quite impressive in numbers but not so impressive when looking more closely at it... ;)
 

feye1

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Loke

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Lets sum it up, so far...

#1 - a "couple" of kilometers was a little more, 94.6 to be exact.
#2 - 200 000 pow, down to 115 000 pow.

But we still have not answered Shierholzers most relevant question, "who lives there?" ... ;)
 

misterbean

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I believe one US documentary spoke of 70 miles. that is a little over 100 km.

This close enough?

as for Shierholzer's question, the answer would be: "nobody", according to Rommel's letters to his wife :laugh:

edit:
In September 1940, at the time of the Italian invasion of Egypt, the force consisted of roughly 36,000 soldiers and about 65 tanks.

115000 then. Still not bad by a total force about 1/3rd smaller. I did say the forces were 3 to 1, did I not?
 
Last edited:

tommylotto

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Being responsible for the most in-depth Italian-centric mod for TFH, I have philosophized quite a bit over this issue. Other mods (that will go nameless) have actually created a special unit called Italian Infantry that fight worse than say German or Polish infantry. I find that to be an abominable decision. The game gives us countless reasons why one unit will fight better than another -- equipment, doctrine, leadership, experience, and national dissent. Germany is blessed with better leaders, more experienced troops, more national leadership, and more IC. That is more than enough to explain why German troops fought better than Italian troops on most occasions. But the concept that a German unit (merely because they are German) will still perform better than an equally equipped, trained and motivated Italian unit is nonsense. (Sure they are on average taller, but in modern combat that just makes them bigger targets.) The game needs to be premised upon the understanding that all things being equal, they will be equal.

That being said, things were decidedly not equal going into WWII, particularly in the Italian army. There was a significant difference between the more professional parts of the Italian Army (the Alpini, the Bersaglieri, the Grenadiers, the Folgore, the armor and motorized divisions) and the bulk of the regular infantry. As pointed out by Loke, above, Italians on occasion fought remarkably heroic. Six Italian frogmen on manned torpedoes took out two battleships at Alexandria. The determined defense and sacrifice of the Folgore at El Alamein is unquestioned. Tell the Italian tanker in the Ariete riding across the desert, staying in formation even though he is out of ammunition, in his little M13/40 arrayed against Shermans and Crusaders that can easily penetrate his armor that he lacks courage and determination. The Alpini Corps kept their heads during Little Saturn while everyone about them (including Germans and Hungarians) were losing theirs, and the Tridentina were heroic at Nikolayevka. (For a good read check out Sacrifice On The Steepe by Hope Hamilton.) However, those instances were Decima MAS commandos, Folgore paratroopers, Ariete armored and the Alpini, not the regular infantry. The regular infantry was repeatedly humiliated -- the attack on southern France, the attack on Greece, the attack on Egypt. In Greece and France they were given assignments over narrow mountainous terrain doomed to fail, and in Egypt they were seriously outclassed in equipment and transportation. However, there were also serious motivation problems. Problem one was that they were a good natured people asked to fight on the side of evil (but we will not dwell on that). Mostly, they were farmers' sons given their grandfather's rifle, dropped in front of the frozen Don, and told to stop tanks.

In my mod I struggle with this disparity of performance. Italy has an historically accurate and massive OOB, but their multitude of divisions mostly lack sufficient fighting strength, consisting of fascist militia (a new unit) or conscripts (a new weaker infantry-type unit). Just like in real life, Italy looks very powerful on the map, but underperforms craptastically. However, other nations also have their poor divisions earning the "conscript" label. Italy just starts out with more. Even the German SS start out as SS militia, just like the CCNN -- both can later be upgraded to better quality units. Every nation's militia is the same. Every nation's conscripts are the same. Every nation's infantry is the same. An Italian conscript division, if upgraded to regular infantry, given the same equipment, leadership, training and experience, will fight just as well as the equally provided German infantry. As that is the case in real life, so it should be in the game. The trick, of course, is to manage with your limited IC and leadership to upgrade your conscripts to infantry, improve your office ratio, keep up-to-date on your techs and doctrines, fund your upgrades with IC, and get your troops and leaders experience. That can be easier said than done.
 
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Secret Master

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Being responsible for the most in-depth Italian-centric mod for TFH, I have philosophized quite a bit over this issue. Other mods (that will go nameless) have actually created a special unit called Italian Infantry that fight worse than say German or Polish infantry. I find that to be an abominable decision.

You are quite right. Rommel would ultimately agree with you:

TargaRommel.jpg


My Italian is bad, but I think it translates to something like this:

The German soldier has impressed the world, however the Italian Bersagliere soldier has impressed the German soldier.

I think Rommel never really liked Italian leadership, but HOI3 is a game with enough detail to differentiate between weapons, doctrines, troops, and leaders. :)

One of the things I dislike, apparently as you do, is any attempt to give countries specific units with better or worse stats. (I also dislike decisions that give countries special bonuses, but I understand why those decisions are in the game.) I hear the argument over and over again that "country X has better/worse unit Y than country Z", but it always makes me scratch my head. Take an infantry brigade. There are 4 weapon techs and 2 doctrines that impact the unit's stats, which does not even take into account the impact of officer ratio, leaders, doctrines that give combat events, doctrines that change the CA bonus, supply techs, techs that reduce attrition in bad climate, and probably some other things I am leaving out. With that many ways of customizing just a plain infantry brigade, why would any country need special units in the same category?

We're picking on Italy, and I'd ask the historians whether Italy's problems are readily displayed in poor officer ratio, poorer generals (wow, Italy's generals are crap compared to the other majors), and crap doctrines? If the answer is, "Yes, poor officer ratio, poor generals, and poor doctrines illustrate Italy's inferiority in combat," then why give special units to Italy at all? And if a player can overcome these problems by good gameplay, then why punish them with "special" units?

Look, Mussolini was not that brilliant of a leader, and the Italian military was not prepared for war in 1940 anyway. And the game models all that fairly well with crap IC and low leadership. What else does anyone need?
 

Redhead

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You're comparing Italians fighting three years far from home with Poles getting overrun by a larger neighbor in four weeks?
While that's a odd comparision on it's own, it's definitely not suited to tell who fights harder.


Poles did as well. As german ideology predicts, polish troops on the axis side had little combat value (their allied counterparts were quite noteable, though).

What Polish troops on the axis side ? There were none.
 

feye1

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What Polish troops on the axis side ? There were none.

Not? You should read again about the history of your country then.

Many of them deserted to the Allies when they had the chance though.
 

shierholzer

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What Polish troops on the axis side ? There were none.
Large parts of the non-frontline troops were 'volunteers' from occupied territories - Poland included. Most of them volunteered since 'volunteer'-troops got larger rations that non-german civilians - most of them switched sides at the first possible occassion as feye already noted.
 

Nicolas I

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Just listen to Churchill's "We will never surrender" speech. Always fills me with a sudden British patriotic zeal, and I am not even British. Go figure how the British themselves felt after that.

The title of the speech is remembered as We shall fight on the beaches.

"I have myself full confidence that if all do their duty and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our island home, ride out the storms of ware outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary, for years, if necessary, alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. that is the resolve of His Majesty's Government, every man of them. that is the will of Parliament and the nation. The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and their need, will defend to the death their native soils, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength, even though a large tract of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule.

We shall not flag nor fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France and on the seas and oceans; we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender and even if, which I do not for the moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, will carry on the struggle until in God's good time the New World with all its power and might, sets forth to the liberation and rescue of the Old."

Winston Churchill, speech before the House of Commons, June 4, 1940
 

tommylotto

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The title of the speech is remembered as We shall fight on the beaches.

....We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France and on the seas and oceans; we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender"

Winston Churchill, speech before the House of Commons, June 4, 1940

It is a great speech, don't get me wrong, but he was just trying to inspire with propaganda. Here is a picture taken just a few months later of a large number of British troops that apparently didn't get the "never surrender" message. They were rounded up by the Bersaglieri in 1941 (notice the fancy black feathers in their helmets). I know there is a wealth of similar images of Italians surrendering, but I attach this one to make the point that any rational soldier will surrender when placed in a seemingly hopeless situation.

UK%20POW.jpg
 
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