Territorial pride

[HeliumPL]

Hi comrades

I think, that 'territorial pride' modifier makes no sense. Why? Because only axis countries get it. Why it's only for axis? Poland is a good example of country, which should have this modifier. Didn't polish soldiers fight hard to defend their country? They fought to the last soldier or until the ammo ended. That's a real territorial pride! Did Italians fight like Poles? They were disappointed when allies invaded them and wanted to sign a peace treaty, which resulted in German intervention. Of course not all allied countries should have this modifier, because for example Denmark capitulated few hours after DoW. Also Benelux and France didn't fight like Soviets or Germans while their land was invaded.

What do I propose? Territorial pride for these countries:
Germany
Japan
USA
United Kingdom
Poland
Finland
USSR
Maybe Switzerland
Republic of China(and communist China, Shanxi etc.)
Czechoslovakia
Occasionally Balkan countries like Hungary or Romania

 

[TejaAmelung]

Because the factions should differ and they had no better idea. And I strongly doubt this game will be modified in any way different than fixes anymore.

 

[PEP]

What do I propose? Territorial pride for these countries:
Germany
Japan
USA
United Kingdom
Poland
Finland
USSR
Maybe Switzerland
Republic of China(and communist China, Shanxi etc.)
Czechoslovakia
Occasionally Balkan countries like Hungary or Romania

If you say so. This 'territorial pride' bonus doesn't make much sense but your list of countries isn't much better.

 

[sunsterson]

So basically every country that participated in ww2 that's homeland was a battlefield should get it ?

 

[HeliumPL]

If you say so. This 'territorial pride' bonus doesn't make much sense but your list of countries isn't much better.

Of course, it's a proposition of "proper" implementation of Territorial Pride. As I said, that it makes no sense, it shouldn't appear in the game

So basically every country that participated in ww2 that's homeland was a battlefield should get it ?

This also sounds good

 

[PEP]

IMO this bonus should be limited to Japan.

 

[Secret Master]

Other countries do get it sometimes, though.

If any country fires a decision or gets an event that gives a combat efficiency bonus, it's flagged as "territorial pride" in the tooltips. The Soviets get a version of this during the Great Patriotic War chain. It's not just the Axis.

Could you imagine the outcry if EVERY country got it? Even France in 1940?

 

[adam_grif]

As I recall the French did fight very hard when the Germans were pushing into France. But by then it was too late because the bulk of their best forces had already been encircled and destroyed. Territorial pride is a stupid gamey modifier but the game is already filled with them. Click the Blitzkreig button to make your soldiers magically 20% better for six months. Click the Their Finest Hour button to make your interceptors into ubermench for six months. These are all designed as makeshift solutions to the core problem of being unable to accurately represent history within the system. For balance reasons, France will basically always fall, even if the historical mistakes that led to their demise are completely avoided. How many times have we all seen Germany punch through the Maginot line or swarm gazillions of troops through southern France? If France establishes a strong defensive line they will basically fall over in a year or so because their manpower will hit zero, as though their population was literally so low that they couldn't sustain trench warfare inflicting disproportionate casualties on the Germans for 8 months, while the Germs magically get free manpower from several events. Paradox has to "guarantee" that France falls in almost every game because if the Germans got stonewalled in '40 every game would be a boring stalemate in Europe until Uncle Joe had enough forces to laugh his way to Berlin (1943, usually).

 

[Loke]

Did Italians fight like Poles?

No, the Italians did not fight like the Poles, the Italians fought for about 3 years while the poles lasted about 4 weeks...

It is so sad that people still fall for the old "lets pick on the Italian war effort" propaganda, now go enlighten yourself an study/read modern historical research/conclusions.

Apple vs pears, difficult to compare.

 

[Kung Zog]

As I recall the French did fight very hard when the Germans were pushing into France. But by then it was too late because the bulk of their best forces had already been encircled and destroyed. .

indeed. that was the case.

 

[Kovax]

As pointed out, if it's included, some Balkan countries should get it, others shouldn't. Romania surrendered within a week after the Soviets crossed their borders, Hungary didn't surrender until units were literally out of country to defend, and at least one continued to fight for about another week or two after the country was totally occupied. Several Japanese garrisons (literally down to a single man) finally surrendered in the 1950s-60s.

As for Poland, most of the Poles never really got the chance to fight. Their critical road junctions and rail systems were heavily bombed almost from the start, making it virtually impossible for called-up reserves to reach their units (including their weapons and equipment) until those units had been overrun by the German land troops. In essence, a significant portion of the Polish army was effectively eliminated even before it arrived.

Personally, I'd rather see the game fixed than to have more colorful band-aids put over the problems.

 

[PEP]

As pointed out, if it's included, some Balkan countries should get it, others shouldn't. Romania surrendered within a week after the Soviets crossed their borders, Hungary didn't surrender until units were literally out of country to defend, and at least one continued to fight for about another week or two after the country was totally occupied.

This has more to do with Hitler refusing to give up Hungary than with the Hungarians will to fight...

 

[Ikarases]

As I recall the French did fight very hard when the Germans were pushing into France. But by then it was too late because the bulk of their best forces had already been encircled and destroyed. Territorial pride is a stupid gamey modifier but the game is already filled with them. Click the Blitzkreig button to make your soldiers magically 20% better for six months. Click the Their Finest Hour button to make your interceptors into ubermench for six months. These are all designed as makeshift solutions to the core problem of being unable to accurately represent history within the system. For balance reasons, France will basically always fall, even if the historical mistakes that led to their demise are completely avoided. How many times have we all seen Germany punch through the Maginot line or swarm gazillions of troops through southern France? If France establishes a strong defensive line they will basically fall over in a year or so because their manpower will hit zero, as though their population was literally so low that they couldn't sustain trench warfare inflicting disproportionate casualties on the Germans for 8 months, while the Germs magically get free manpower from several events. Paradox has to "guarantee" that France falls in almost every game because if the Germans got stonewalled in '40 every game would be a boring stalemate in Europe until Uncle Joe had enough forces to laugh his way to Berlin (1943, usually).

I totally agree that game is full of this kind of nonsense, just to make the world look more or less as it did. Still, we see Red Europe in 1943

As for territorial pride: I'd award it to any combat unit that defends their homeland (not annexed territory, but core territory). As it stands now, it will allow Axis nations to kill off a little bit more of Allied/Soviet troops before these two make them surrender, so it's an utter nonsense

 

[misterbean]

I think that the territorial pride is meant to show the leadership of a nation refusing to give up under any circumstance whatsoever.

Hitler would never have agreed to a cease-fire (he didn't).
Churchill would never have agreed to a truce either (UK really should get it if he's in charge).
Japan would certainly get it, choosing mass suicide over the disgrace of surrender.
The rest? I don't think the men at the top had that spirit.
Just listen to Churchill's "We will never surrender" speech. Always fills me with a sudden British patriotic zeal, and I am not even British. Go figure how the British themselves felt after that.

 

[tommylotto]

No, the Italians did not fight like the Poles, the Italians fought for about 3 years while the poles lasted about 4 weeks...

It is so sad that people still fall for the old "lets pick on the Italian war effort" propaganda, now go enlighten yourself an study/read modern historical research/conclusions.

Apple vs pears, difficult to compare.

Three years... then they divided the nation down the middle and fought on on both sides for another two years and fought a civil war to boot. (No pun intended, get it --"boot")

The modifier is stupid if based on perceived nationalistic characteristics, but if it's needed to balance the game, fine, do what you have to do.

 

[emux]

I think it should be based on the support/organization that the party who is in charge of the governmenton has (Propaganda, speechs, etc.) , regardless of the country it is. Perhaps 70+/70+ or so.

 

[shierholzer]

Paradox has to "guarantee" that France falls in almost every game because if the Germans got stonewalled in '40 every game would be a boring stalemate in Europe until Uncle Joe had enough forces to laugh his way to Berlin (1943, usually).

Well imagine how boring it'd be to play as one of the later participants (Soviets or Yankees) - a french AI with historical troop strength is sometimes even able to save Poland on it's own.

No, the Italians did not fight like the Poles, the Italians fought for about 3 years while the poles lasted about 4 weeks...

The Italians fought till Husky arrived. Within four weeks of Husky the front was literally held by Germans.

Several Japanese garrisons (literally down to a single man) finally surrendered in the 1950s-60s.

That's a problem caused by the Yankees dropping 'your government just capitulated'-leaflets since '44.

 

[Loke]

The Italians fought till Husky arrived. Within four weeks of Husky the front was literally held by Germans.

Italy joined the war in june 1940 and operation Husky started in july 1943, that is more than 3 years, so your point is?...

And as tommylotto wrote above, the Italians continued the fighting for two more years on both sides.

 

[shierholzer]

Italy joined the war in june 1940 and operation Husky started in july 1943, that is more than 3 years, so your point is?...

You're comparing Italians fighting three years far from home with Poles getting overrun by a larger neighbor in four weeks?
While that's a odd comparision on it's own, it's definitely not suited to tell who fights harder.

And as tommylotto wrote above, the Italians continued the fighting for two more years on both sides.

Poles did as well. As german ideology predicts, polish troops on the axis side had little combat value (their allied counterparts were quite noteable, though).

 

[Loke]

I know I wrote that in my initial post, you cant compare apple and pears.

But we do have some real facts, Poland was active during september 1939 and Italy from june 1940 to september 1943.