Terrible Narrative Moments (Spoilers) - Let's make a list

[Luckmann]

There are things in the game - many of them - that aren't actually bugs or issues of technical oversights. Moments where you're really just "..wut?" at not being able to react appropriately, or when it feels like there's just an option missing, or the outcome of a dialogue or a quest makes no sense at all.

Sometimes, this is obviously due to one of the many, many, many, many bugs of the game, but sometimes, it's not really a bug, and it's just.. an oddity that stands out like a sore thumb.

Since these aren't technical issues or bugs, they don't belong in the Tyranny: Support & Bug Reports section, but they should nonetheless be commented on and reported in a sense, in the vain and faint hope that Tyranny will actually be completed one day, and that they actually "patch" not just technical aspects, but also narrative oversights, errors, or pure nonsense.

I'll go first, but I'll make a separate post for it.

Note that this isn't intended to rag on the game in itself, because Tyranny does a great many things amazingly, and the overall aims and goals of the game and the narrative are actually great. But there's plenty of issues that mars Tyranny horrifically.

What Terrible Narrative Moments have you encountered?

 

[Luckmann]

So far, to me, three moments (that aren't clearly bugs) have truly stood out as really terrible, and a fourth one minor strangeness that I just encountered:

• The nonsense meeting Sirin at the would-be "Inn" at Lethien's Crossing.
• Running into a group of haggard and malnourished war veterans in the Junkyard of the Rust Canyon and only
  
• Kills-in-Shadow admitting admitting to attacking and murdering Disfavored, in their camp, by drowning them, and then eating them.

• The first one, meeting Sirin at Lethien's Crossing, is probably the most well-known "wut?":s of the game. Basically, last time you met Sirin was in the Scarlet Chorus camp, where she was acting like the Queen B*tch of Antioch, dismissing and belittling you. Talking with her and others will have it explained to you that she's the Archon of Song, and she's been forced to work with the Voices of Nerat. She's a tremendously powerful tool, used by the Scarlet Chorus to make recruits flock to their cause.

When you encounter her in Lethien's Crossing, she is busy toying with some fawning peasants, and you can't ask her what she's doing there. You can't ask her how she got away from Nerat. Once you've recruited her, she'll pour her heart out to you about everything that's ever happened to her at the drop of a hat, and the entire scenario becomes even stranger, as it's clear that she was forced to work with Tunon and then Nerat entirely against her will, and it's also made clear just how incredibly powerful she is in an overall narrative sense.

Yet she joins you like an archetypical dilettante rogue from D&D Session #4, without any explanation as to what she's doing there, what she's trying to achieve, or even really why she'd be interested in joining you. It's entirely out of the blue. And you can't question her. For the entire prologue, you can question and accuse Verse to the point of driving her away, on account of her ties to Nerat and the suspicion that she's a plant (which she'll readily acknowledge that she is). But Sirin? Nah, she's good.

• And then there's the poor guys at the Junkyard of the Rust Canyon. I screencapped the entirety of the dialogue available to you:

Now, this likely changes a lot depending on who you've sided with, I suspect, but this is the whole thing from my perspective. This was so bad that it initially made me file a bug report based on the fact that I thought that these were involved in the quest Cleaning Out the Junkyard. And even though I was wrong (and reported that I came to the same conclusion) the issue of the whole thing still lingers. This isn't a bug. This makes it even worse. This is placeholder-level content.

So while technically not an issue to be reported as such, this is ridiculously terrible and simplistic as presented. Hurr durr, die. Absolutely pathetic narrative writing for a roleplaying game, and the opponents might as well just be made to be hostile to begin with, unless you have triggered conditions that flags you as aligned with the rebellion or at war with.. well.. everyone.

RIP random malnourished veterans that an otherwise rational and forgiving fatebinder had to randomly rape to death like a witless barbarian because "¯\(°_o)/¯ i dunno lol"-level writing. Out of all issues I've come across so far, out of all the oversights and arguable narrative issues, this one is probably the one that genuinely made me mad and disappointed.

• The last big one is really not as much "bad" as it's just.. nonsense. It's just.. terrible, in a way that makes you want to laugh at how terrible it is, rather than to get mad. Basically, if you recruit Kills-in-Shadow (let's ignore the issues with that particular piece of dialogue in this thread) and ask her if she's had any good hunts lately, you can get this hilarious little nugget:

Let's just be clear here. This could be fine if you're aligned to the rebels or if you're an anarchist or whatever. But, under most circumstances, she's admitting to bold-faced murder of imperial soldiers to the face of an Fatebinder sworn to the Archon of Justice, within earshot of a metal-clad fanatic of the Disfavored Legion; the Disfavored Legion, where every single soldier is remembered and mourned.

The fact that my character in this case heavily favoured the Disfavored and genuinely like Graven Ashe just makes the whole thing even more jaw-droppingly hilarious. This oversight is slightly less maddening because I believe this to be part of a larger number of quips that are called up randomly when you ask some characters certain things, so it's entirely possible someone just wrote that at some point, not knowing exactly how or when it 'd appear, and maybe they intended to let you respond to it. I dunno.

But not being able to react to it, not being able to question her, not being able to just lose your stool right then and there and cut her down, kick her off the spire, that's just another TNM.

 

[thevmag]

Beastwomen already have a reputation of maneaters. They're considered barbarous brutes who know only murder and rutting, and you willingly hired her on... and you're surprised that she hunts and kills?

As to parching the soil... you went the solo route, didn't you?
I know the feel, brah. Neither army acting like adults, take the Hall for yourself. Burning Library, you'd expect Chorus to fight you. Lethian's Crossing, you're a master diplomat. Stone Sea, you come out on good terms with the human settlements and the beastwoman you now lead.

Then comes Stalwart. You go in acting diplomatic, planning how you're going to assist the locals to get what you need, and they won't have it. The Disfavored attack on sight, the locals won't hear your diplomacy. You think attacking the Disfavored first and releasing some prisoners might help, but that just gets you spat on. The more you crawl through the storm, the more you see those stubborn Tiersman do nothing but rebuke and assault you for being Kyros's pawn and trying to steal their heritage. And it gets worse: the first group gives you no choice but to attack; the second group will attack because you've slaughtered the first; and so on. You've been rendered more powerless than the poor souls rotting in Tunon's dungeons. You went into that storm looking to play nice guy, but have been battered by rust and hostility long enough that all you can do is parch the soil.

 

[Luckmann]

Beastwomen already have a reputation of maneaters. They're considered barbarous brutes who know only murder and rutting, and you willingly hired her on... and you're surprised that she hunts and kills?

No, not surprised, really, just reacting to the fact that you can't... react. Her being a beastly maneater is fine (well.. I did try to turn her away at first, I'm not a fan, but she was subjugated and insisted), but she's actually admitting to murdering a Disfavored in front of a Fatebinder and an actual Disfavored war hero. It's more than a little bit strange that that is completely ignored. If she was just telling a story about how she killed Disfavored in a conflict years ago, or something, but no, she recently attacked, drowned and ate one of your closest allies.

As to parching the soil... you went the solo route, didn't you?

Nope, I actually allied with the Disfavored. Sure, they were both out of line, and I should probably add the moment when you're forced to choose between the two armies to this thread, but I'm playing my character as a civilized nobleman that at least tries to be a unifier. The Chorus is a bunch of foul-smelling anarchic buttheads that I wouldn't even want as servants in my household, while the Disfavored are aristocratic, disciplined and respectful civilization-builders, nearly as obsessed with the concept of Law as Tunon himself.

So naturally, I sided with them.

Would that I could, I was also hoping to do some "civilization-building" in trying to turn some enemies to our cause, to make the populace love Kyros and fight under my banner, side-by-side with the Disfavored, but even the opportunities to suggest such a thing are few and far between - although I do appreciate it when the option is there, even if the one I'm talking to spits me in the face for it.

And going to Stalwart is the first thing I'm forced to do (since Lethian's Crossing is FUBAR). When it comes to meeting the isolated veterans, I suspect that it's different if you've allied with the rebellion, but it's frustrating that you can't even ask them if they're OK, only to be identified and attacked. Hell, I would even allow them to leave peacefully, if they would leave their weapons, even if it came back to bite me later. I'm not into the business of killing weathered and malnourished war veterans like some savage. If push comes to shove, I'll stab them for Kyros' glory, but that entire encounter is pure BS.

 

[Luckmann]

Here's another TNM:

Basically, in Trapper's Junction, you come across this guy, who's bleeding out all over the place, and it's obvious that he's going to die. You can offer to dress his wounds, but Lantry makes it clear that there's no point, and the soldier agrees that he's going to die. It's also obvious that he's in a lot of pain.

You have two options. You can watch him splutter and die in agony, or you can actively attack him and savagely murder him.

The worst thing is that at this point in the story, mercy-killing is an established action that you have been able to do on pretty much everyone else that's been in this or similar situations. There's one quite sweet scene, where you tell a commander that you were forced to kill to look to the sky, and that the clouds are clearing after all.

Now, you may think that the "Attack" option in this case is the "mercy-killing", but if you choose it, this plays out:

Oh well, gee, I wish there would've been an option to give this guy a sedative or something. And then, of course, you gain fear with Lantry, because apparently you're a savage murderous bastard. I swear, the writing fluctuates between "totally reasonable guy that's with the Empire for various reasons" and "murderhobo imperialist/barbarian multiclass: the game".

 

[Shinros]

Disfavored are not civilization builders they take the scorched earth approach with everything plus they are pretty much nazi level racists to tiers men. Barik even says he can't wait to go along with you to hang them. When I got to the court in act 2 a npc raised his eyebrow at me siding with either army(I tried both options) since I am essentially condoning their stupid antics he was right. Went solo dispensed justice to both armies and the rebels in my own way as the solo route npc said both armies acted like infantile children and would of all died if you were not there to do THEIR job.

Also the tiersmen don't WANT to bow to kyros and you sided with an army that hates them and their heritage they are more likely to enslave them than anything. According to barik they won't even allow a capable tiersmen to join them because he is not from the "pure" north. (The only good thing the chorus has over em)

Only way to get these people on your side is to be a rebel and wanting to help them gain their freedom which they want they have no interest in bowing to kyros.

Sirin? Considering the state of her dress I assume she did a runner as soon as she got the chance.

 

[Akka le Vil]

Pretty good points overall.
I'd like to make an addition, but it's not a specific point. It's rather the globality of all the moments where you're treated like one of the Archon's henchmen, or a member of their army, and you can't remind them that you work for Tunon and Kyros above all.
Though I would highlight the Cairn despoiling moment as the most glaring one.

 

[demanvanwezel]

you gain wrath with bleden mark because you mercy kill a character instead of violently eviscerating her, I can understand patching up or being friendly to an enemy can gain this but come on man, I still killed her

 

[Luckmann]

I give up. This game has decided to force my character into being a veritable schizoid:

That "I'm looking forward to helping them stamp the rest of you out! Mwahahaha, I eat kittens for breakfast and kick puppies on my way to work!" (paraphrasing) was literally the only option. I'm not sure if the writing and dialogues get more awful the further into the game I get, or if this is just the going theme past the prologue.

you gain wrath with bleden mark because you mercy kill a character instead of violently eviscerating her, I can understand patching up or being friendly to an enemy can gain this but come on man, I still killed her

Well, I can sorta understand this, since that has to do with Bleden Mark's personal preferences. That being said, I think that he's quite... inconsistent. You can gain Favor with him by helping the kid in the Scarlet Chorus camp during the prologue, but if you show an ounce of pity, mercy-kill people or even offer to patch them up, you're suddenly on his shitlist. Especially in this case, where you can't even perform a mercy-killing or give those conveniently forgotten sedatives, and end up face-stabbing the poor sod anyway, it comes across as weird.

 

[Shinros]

He approves because you are helping the kid survive if you train him using athletics(forcing him to hit you harder and harder) or using your cunning to outwit the boss and help the kid. It's most likely he trained you in the same way in the solo route is is revealed because you were promising you were sent train with bleden mark, 5 fatebinders were sent to him only you survived the training.

Yes people talk that those who train with mark tends to lose limbs.

The person there is an enemy soldier and you are patching them up why? The is a difference mark shows no quarter to his enemies he is actually quite a violent individual if you read his short story and some of his comments in the solo route.

He appreciates you being cunning, smart and brutal to your enemies he approves of you breaking the fingers of a female captain of the unbroken. He is kyros personal assassin and executioner.

 

[Ninjamestari]

So many of you seem to have problems with the concepts of good and evil, complaining about "I want to act in the way I consider to be virtuous and be rewarded for it". Seriously, you guys suck at playing the villain, and if you're expecting a pat on the back for being decent, then you suck at being a good guy too.

 

[Madrias]

The nonsense meeting Sirin at the would-be "Inn" at Lethien's Crossing.

I totally agree with that and want to add something. After joining me I talked to Sirin. She now reveals to me that I am an enemy of Kyros. Wait what? When did that happen?
I think the problem is that you are not supposed to go to Lethians crossing first, but why wouldn´t I?

 

[Luckmann]

So many of you seem to have problems with the concepts of good and evil, complaining about "I want to act in the way I consider to be virtuous and be rewarded for it". Seriously, you guys suck at playing the villain, and if you're expecting a pat on the back for being decent, then you suck at being a good guy too.

Then allow me to suck at playing a villain and suck at being a good guy equally.

Seriously, I realize that some people love to stab shit and kick puppies, but that's not my brand of evil. You know what? I would be completely fine if the game ground my good-guy sensibilities down to dust. Betray my confidence at every turn. Make every time I free someone I thought innocent come back and haunt me.

I trusted that commander in Vendrien's Guard? Have him come back leading a group of soldiers, apologizing for the fact that he has to kill me.

I allowed that pick-pocket to run free due to a "lack of evidence", or said that the soldier's testimony sounded dodgy (maybe he was nervous, who knows)? Make me hear later about how he stabbed some eldery woman in an attempted robbery.

I move in to mercy-kill someone, telling them sorry that it has to be this way? Fine, have them attempt to stab me as I reach down to do it, in a last show of defiance, and if my Dodge isn't high enough, give me 5 Wounds right then and there. Hell, make it right before a fight, I don't care.

When I meet a group of malnourished veterans, stuck behind some rock, and I allow them to go away freely as long as they leave their weapons and swear to leave the war, have them reappear later, fed and outfitted, having betrayed my confidence; suddenly I'm facing 10 enemies instead of 6, 4 of which are veterans and maybe 1 is an elite soldier because the veterans fed the enemy intel about me coming.

Just allow me to make the choice. Allow my choices to come back and haunt me.

And likewise, allow us to be that practical, machiavellian person that would do whatever benefits them the most, and do none of these things unless it directly benefited them in some way, and would kill all the enemy combatants. And then also allow us to play the schemer that will try to recruit everyone and their dog to your cause, whether prince or pauper. Or the uncompromising Disfavored that will sentence and kill everyone at the first offence.

But make those choices mine. Imagine the opposite; imagine your only option was to do the "good" thing, to have do that mercy-killing even though your character never would do that, or that you'd have to be, with no altruistic action ever coming back to haunt you, but merely reward you. It would be just as frustrating.

My main character is a no-nonsense believer in law, and a nobleborn of Kyro's Empire, and a servant of the courts. He's not out there to be evil, he's there to bring the Tiers in order, in the most expedient and bloodless manner possible. He's not a hero or a villain, he's doing his job and he's trying to be good when he can, and will do evil if he has to. Being forced to act like a barbarian or unable to react appropriately in a great many instances is incredibly frustrating, especially since it's not consistent.

There's plenty of amazing narrative moments in the game, which is why these terrible ones really stand out. Sometimes it's not even about the outcome - just about the choice of how you approach a situation. For example, with the veterans, having them attack me would've been fine; it's me being forced to attack them right off the bat that is annoying. Why even have a dialogue? Might as well just have them be hostile from the beginning.

 

[Ninjamestari]

They're not really "Terrible Narrative Moments" to be fair, the game is just unfinished. The only part of the game that is relatively polished and feels like a finished product is the first act. Second act is about half-way-through done and the third act is just about completely missing, the game just pretends there's a third act. That's why there are so many options missing; they're not terrible by design, they're terrible by obsidian's laziness. Also, I wasn't refering to those parts where there are no more than one or two ways to solve a dialogue due to lazy and unfinished writing, it was more about people whining on getting wrath from an NPC for their choices.

 

[Luckmann]

They're not really "Terrible Narrative Moments" to be fair, the game is just unfinished. [...]

I disagree. These are TNM:s because the game is unfinished. Splitting hairs, maybe, but the fact that the game is unfinished doesn't make these moments not-terrible.

 

[Ninjamestari]

You are right of course, but pointing out *why* they are terrible is pointless due to the fact that they are just unfinished. You don't give constructive pointers to a lazy worker who knows precisely how the work should be done, just chooses not to do it properly, you kick that guy in the nads.

 

[Luckmann]

You are right of course, but pointing out *why* they are terrible is pointless due to the fact that they are just unfinished. You don't give constructive pointers to a lazy worker who knows precisely how the work should be done, just chooses not to do it properly, you kick that guy in the nads.

I do agree, but the point isn't to point out why they're terrible, I just did that as part of our discussion. The point here is to catalogue and display these generally terrible or downright awful moments, because as much as I would want to pin this on an actual culprit and as much as I believe that many of the actual developers on the factory floor are inclined to agree with at least some of our b*tching, this thread, pointing out the flaws as we see them, along with actually not buying the game or future titles, is the only way we have to figuratively kick this particular lazy "worker" in the nads.

We know why they're terrible. And every time we point one of these out, we're the figurative boss (customers, fans) asking our collective figurative worker (Obsidian, Paradox) what the hell, man?

Pretty good points overall.
I'd like to make an addition, but it's not a specific point. It's rather the globality of all the moments where you're treated like one of the Archon's henchmen, or a member of their army, and you can't remind them that you work for Tunon and Kyros above all.
Though I would highlight the Cairn despoiling moment as the most glaring one.

Yeah, this is actually really annoying. I didn't react to it as first, but the more I play, the more obvious it gets. I'd like to have the opportunity to either sternly or respectfully tell people that "You are not my boss", "I do not serve you; I am here to represent The Adjudicator's Law and Kyros' Peace", or "Eat a metric ton of dicks, you steelclad cunt, we're not battle-brothers, you simply happen to be the best choice of meatshield."

I swear, the number of times I've been able to shout something along the lines of "For Graven Ashe and the Disfavored!" or have been referred to as part of the Disfavored in some way, ever since I favored the Disfavored, have been staggering, and it's just as jarring and strange each time. I'm not even a honorary member, people! We just happen to be on the same side. I get that you're all about your own private warlord and that he's your collective Grandfather Christmas, or that you hate the Disfavored, the last best hope for humanity and civilization, for one reason or another, but I'm basically a glorified attaché from a completely different part of the government, sent to act as a free agent and to arbitrate disputes.

I would've liked to see more of that, instead of acting like a Sergeant in the Disfavored Special Forces.

 

[Ulicus]

My first playthrough I (begrudgingly) sided with the Scarlet Chorus and visited Lethian's Crossing immediately after Tunon. (MISTAAAAAAAAKE)

I had given the town to the Disfavored during conquest, and so took Barik hoping he could help de-escalate any potential problems.

"Surely," I thought, "the devs will have taken this scenario into consideration"

Alas, no.

I instead had to slaughter the Disfavored to a man. And Barik? Barik passed no comment whatsoever. He just happily cut down his sworn brothers and sisters like they were nothing.

While fairly amusing, it was also distracting enough that I felt compelled to reload an earlier save and side with the Disfavored. (I wanted a full companion playthrough, first run)

 

[Luckmann]

Alright, so. I just arrived at Twin Rivers.

I'm at a loss for words. The entire game is all over the map. At this point, I'm not even sure whether to praise it or can it, anymore. I just. I just don't understand. Who thought it was a good idea to force this game out the door at this point?

My first playthrough I ... visited Lethian's Crossing immediately after Tunon. [...]

My condolences.

[...]

... And Barik? Barik passed no comment whatsoever. He just happily cut down his sworn brothers and sisters like they were nothing.

[...]

Aww, man. I don't even know what to say. Having originally sided with the Disfavored, I was interested in how things would play out with Barik if you had to fight the Disfavored, since his situation, sense of loyalty and motivations are entirely different to Verse's. I like Barik as a character (and hate him as a companion, because of him being pigeon-holed mechanically, as well as having practically no itemization, for no acceptable reason; but he's the only tank, because Verse is pigeon-holed even more extremely) but stuff like this gets to me.

 

[Ulicus]

Yeah. I mean, maybe there is stuff that digs into that if you go to Cacophony, first. I sure as hell hope so. Like I said, I just reloaded straight after.