Terrible historical inaccurate

[alexchau]

1/ let's start with Chinese Ming empire/Chinese Ming dynasty. This nation will have 60% technology penalty while historically, this dynasty was known as the golden age of Chinese science (having 60% penalty is ridiculous). Ming dynasty was founded by Zhu Yuan Zhang in 1368. There are Chinese historical description mention that during the rise of Chinese rebels against Mongolian rule, in 1355 Ming rebellious army (Mongolian still dominated government in China at the time), Ming rebellious army used range of firearms including fire arrow, fire lance, the early hand grenade, smoke grenade, firearms, cannons, exploding cannonballs, land mine, matchlocks, naval mine, rockets, rocket launcher, two-stage rockets poisonous concoctions. Ming navy was invincible at the sea (Check Japanese invasion of Korea under Hideyoshi's reign) or Korean turtle ship/boat. During Japanese invasion of Korea, Ming and Korean artillery cannon outranged Japanese cannons. both on land and sea. Chinese science only went into decline after the fall of Ming as Qing dynasty didnt favour science.
In this game? Ming empire dont have even a single matchlocks, no cannons nothing.
2/ Japan. Japan was almost united under Nobunaga's rule and then it has briefly civil war and then quickly united by Hideyoshi. He then went on to invade Korea. In this game? Japan is still in bitter civil war.
3/ Vietnam suffered from usurpation of the throne and its imperial heir went to Ming to ask help to restore his rule and Ming emperor accepted. Then he sent 5000 infantry to protect this heir however the usurper Ho Quy Ly staged an ambush and killed all Chinese troops along with this imperial heir. Ming emperor was enraged and sent entire army to avenge for the loss of this troop. Vietnamese dynasty quickly collapsed and then Ming army occupied Vietnam while searching alternative heir for the throne, however all the heir to throne has been killed. Then, Ming army continue to occupy and then Vietnamese rebelled with its leader known as Le Loi however Ming dynasty still insist that Vietnamese emperor must be someone from Tran imperial family. Then a series of military campaign from both sides ensue which lead to heavy losses for both side. So the entire war is more like Chinese interference and military intervention not reconquest of ancient Chinese territories.

Image of Ming musketeers.

 

[delpiero1234]

Your 'formatting' hurts my eyes.

 

[Sparhafoc]

These 2 points have been said before, but are worth saying again - 1) the game is EUROPA universalis, it focuses on Europe, it gives massive buffs to Europe comparative to ROTW, and is meant to simulate the age of European dominance of the world. 2) It's a game, not an accurate historical simulator.

 

[GlidingHamutaro]

Just saying that Nobunaga was a 1560s character, while this game starts at 1444.

 

[FreeSoc]

"1/ let's start with Chinese Ming empire/Chinese Ming dynasty. This nation will have 60% technology penalty while historically, this dynasty was known as the golden age of Chinese science (having 60% penalty is ridiculous)."

a) I'm fairly certain that the Celestial Empire government type gives Ming a 10% tech discount, making its net tech penalty 50% rather than 60%.
b) Unless you're directly annexing large swathes of land without a 0-DIP CB and coring it yourself, it's pretty easy to stay nearly-current in tech as Ming, as you're rich enough to afford high-level advisors from day 1. Combined with a), this means that you'll happily streak ahead of the rest of Asia tech-wise from very early on in the game.
c) Even if you stay in your 1444 borders, once you "Westernise" you're pretty much the richest and most powerful country on Earth bar none. If you properly colonise and dominate Indonesia then you'll be even more absurdly rich.

 

[Freudia]

These 2 points have been said before, but are worth saying again - 1) the game is EUROPA universalis, it focuses on Europe, it gives massive buffs to Europe comparative to ROTW, and is meant to simulate the age of European dominance of the world. 2) It's a game, not an accurate historical simulator.

This misinformation needs to stop. It's called Europa Universalis because its original incantation was a board game where you could only play European majors. Since then, the game has gone through three major revisions (EU2, EU3, EU4) and has transitioned to a computer game. Since EU3 the game has been notably less solely focused on just Europe and has instead given light to a lot of nations outside of Europe during the time period, so it is hardly true to say that the game focuses on Europe only still. The reason the name is still in use is because it's far more effort to rebrand the game into something else when they already have a working series that people know of. The name sells the game for them, so there's no real good reason to change the name into something else, even if the game is now notably less European-centric compared to previous incantations.

This is basic marketing, honestly.

Now with all that said, the issues regarding the Asian area presented by OP are implemented partially due to historical accuracy (Japan not being unified under Nobunaga or Hideyoshi's rule is accurate for the start of the game, as the game starts in 1444, not 1560 or later) and partially due to game balance (Chinese tech rate at 60%, even though Ming's is really a 50%). For example, the 60% tech rate of Chinese tech is supposed to create the situation where China starts on equal footing to Europe and then gradually falls behind, as historically accurate. Whether the current balancing degrees are correct (one could make a good argument for suggesting that the Muslim and Chinese worlds should start with superior tech levels compared to Europe, and one could make a case for the 60% tech rate being too harsh as Europe didn't pull ahead until near the Industrial Revolution compared to Asia) is up in the air.

The issue about Chinese firearms and cannons, by the way, is more just because artillery is a global acquirement on tech 7. The infantry's lack of firearms is likely due to game balance; do know that China does get firearms faster than Europe does assuming they tech at an equal speed (which you can do vs AI if you're half-decent).

 

[Guru VII]

How could have Ming rebels used matchlock weapons, when matchlock weapons arrived to China when the Portuguese came to their coast in the late 15th century?

 

[Adrian Gaming]

Why is it that everyone claims to be a masterful historian nowadays? Lol.

 

[Ak1995]

Ming in particular did have a golden age, Not In the field of science, but culture and Litterature. some of the greatest works in history are written in this period. Ming had a long line of mediocore rulers after the first half of its existence, and in general the dynasty were more focused on the Traditional than Innovation. Song Dynasty on the other hand had a much greater growth in Science,
I'd like to point out that there is a misunderstanding about how much "shut in" the ming china actual was. However in Eu4 language, Song China was probaly tech level +20/30% ahead of ming.

 

[tobias.mb]

Ok let's ignore completely any GAME balance arguments.
Still your argument is so weird I suspect you either are not serious or just very misinformed. Just pointing out a few things here:

1.) What are you even talking about here? The 'golden age' of China was the Tang Dynasty. At most you might also count the Song for their remarkable growth of commerce, trade and production; but they were also under heavy military pressure... Ming doesn't come anywhere close.
Zhu Yuan Zhang (The first Ming emperor) certainly was capable, but it went downhill after him pretty quickly. Especially the Eunuchs he empowered turned out to be a major nuisance later. Also he might have been a capable military leader and administrator, but he is not known to be a patron of science or innovation. If anything he put heavy restrictions on progress, pretty much wanting everything to stay as it is. He even made profession inheritable...
And what invincible Navy are you talking about? True there was Zheng He and his Voyages to Africa, but that was 1433 and in 1444 the Ming had already pretty much scrapped any naval ambitions.
Finally: matchlocks in China? Though I don't know much about the ~1600 Japanese invasion of Korea I do know that matchlocks only arrived in Japan in the mid 16th century (sold to them by the Portugese), but not at all in China. If anything it should have been only the Japanese with matchlocks...

2.) My Japanese History isn't all that great but Nobunaga was somewhere mid 16th century. Japan being fractured in 1444 is absolutely historical.

3.) Yes Vietnam was never a 'part' of China, BUT it was (just like pretty much every other nation surrounding "China" - though the different Dynasties were hardly the same) a tributary state. At the very least the Chinese would have seen themselves as the suzerains. The time when China accepted (more like was forced to) other nations were their equal came waaaay later. The chinese emperor even claimed to be the son of the heavens ruling over everything under the heavens....

That said, I do agree, that China could use a rework. Let's just hope east Asia is the focus of the next expansion.
Oh also, in the future it might help if you make actual suggestion how to change to game. After all we are not a history seminar here.

 

[icedt729]

The game's whole concept of technology is nonsense from a historical perspective (the change is too dramatic and too limited by arbitrary monarch points and tech groups) so don't take it personally that China is misrepresented because of it. The whole mechanic exists for gameplay reasons alone.

Regarding Japan: like other posters said, you're confused about the time line. Look at, say, 1550 and you'll see Oda Nobunaga and contemporary warring states. Look after maybe 1600 and you'll see the Tokugawa shoguns with a few vassals. It's pretty accurate.

Regarding Vietnam: the game would need to model the Chinese tributary system in order to get this war right and to get East Asia in general to work historically. Unfortunately it doesn't have one and the war as you describe it couldn't work with current mechanics.

 

[Red_warning]

The tech penalty says nothing about how technologically advanced the countries were in 1444, it merely steers the game into being mainly dominated by European nations in order to somewhat mimic our actual history.

 

[Osman Pasha]

Although I completely disagree with what you said, I do agree that Chinese tech should be much better than sub saharan african tech.

 

[icedt729]

Realistically there was no technological difference between western Europe and other Old World civilizations that should yield multiple "+10% production efficiency" or "+10% trade efficiency" multipliers, for example. For that matter, besides a few key innovations like matchlocks or rifled cannons (most of which were quickly copied in India and East Asia) I think European military advantages were more about "high army tradition" than linear technological advances.

There was a time when Europeans could just stroll into a country and take the place over, but that's in Victoria's timeline, not EU's. From 1444-1820 Europe conquered weak, disorderly states through discipline and persistence; I think social and political factors had much more to do with it than technology.

 

[alexchau]

How could have Ming rebels used matchlock weapons, when matchlock weapons arrived to China when the Portuguese came to their coast in the late 15th century?

I suggest you do some research about Ming army. Why not start from Wikipedia?

 

[sr999]

Why is it that everyone claims to be a masterful historian nowadays? Lol.

I blame Wikipedia.

 

[icedt729]

I suggest you do some research about Ming army. Why not start from Wikipedia?

They had hand guns, but not matchlocks. Matchlocks wouldn't be invented for another hundred years. If you're going to patronize other posters you can at least do your own research first.

 

[Chlodio]

I've wondered Ming too, before going to their technology remember that their land forcelimit should be 500K. It sounds overpowering, but note that even Ottomans could have land focelimit even as high ash 150K. That being said at least Ming's troops should be really weak those 500K couldn't even win against 20K Oirats.

EU4 has no sliders like EU3 had, thus it cannot portray quality vs quantity as idea groups have negative effects, which is a flaw.

About technology, Ming should start with better tech than Europeans, but its technology should be more expensive.

 

[icedt729]

That being said at least Ming's troops should be really weak those 500K couldn't even win against 20K Oirats.

It's not like they ever had all 500,000 in one place, and even if they had, the Oirats were nomads and could avoid any battle they didn't think they had a good chance of winning. Conquering the steppe was little gain for tremendous cost so the Ming, like most dynasties, just didn't bother with it. The Qing ignored that lesson and spent decades fighting for control of Dzungaria (northern Xinjiang) for basically no strategic gain.

 

[alexchau]

Ok let's ignore completely any GAME balance arguments.
Still your argument is so weird I suspect you either are not serious or just very misinformed. Just pointing out a few things here:

1.) What are you even talking about here? The 'golden age' of China was the Tang Dynasty. At most you might also count the Song for their remarkable growth of commerce, trade and production; but they were also under heavy military pressure... Ming doesn't come anywhere close.
Zhu Yuan Zhang (The first Ming emperor) certainly was capable, but it went downhill after him pretty quickly. Especially the Eunuchs he empowered turned out to be a major nuisance later. Also he might have been a capable military leader and administrator, but he is not known to be a patron of science or innovation. If anything he put heavy restrictions on progress, pretty much wanting everything to stay as it is. He even made profession inheritable...
And what invincible Navy are you talking about? True there was Zheng He and his Voyages to Africa, but that was 1433 and in 1444 the Ming had already pretty much scrapped any naval ambitions.
Finally: matchlocks in China? Though I don't know much about the ~1600 Japanese invasion of Korea I do know that matchlocks only arrived in Japan in the mid 16th century (sold to them by the Portugese), but not at all in China. If anything it should have been only the Japanese with matchlocks...

2.) My Japanese History isn't all that great but Nobunaga was somewhere mid 16th century. Japan being fractured in 1444 is absolutely historical.

3.) Yes Vietnam was never a 'part' of China, BUT it was (just like pretty much every other nation surrounding "China" - though the different Dynasties were hardly the same) a tributary state. At the very least the Chinese would have seen themselves as the suzerains. The time when China accepted (more like was forced to) other nations were their equal came waaaay later. The chinese emperor even claimed to be the son of the heavens ruling over everything under the heavens....

That said, I do agree, that China could use a rework. Let's just hope east Asia is the focus of the next expansion.
Oh also, in the future it might help if you make actual suggestion how to change to game. After all we are not a history seminar here.

1/ during Zhu Yuan Zhang's process of overthrowing Mongolian rule, he was impressed with the firepower of firearms and by the time of the establishment of Ming, he had about 300k matchlocks men or musketeers.

What went down hill with him you are talking about? What eunouchs you are talking about? During Zhu Yuan Zhang's reign, he recognised that the fall of Tang dynasty because of eunuchs's dirty work and war between imperial concubines in imperial palace. He enacted a law that forbid eunuchs to again education and have relationship with ministers. Only his son (3th Ming emperor) abolished that law and then eunuch faction started to flourish. Ming navty only got scrapped after 5th Ming emperor enthroned. It is when Ming dynasty started to follow isolation policy. Before that Ming navy ruled the wave in Asia. If you read 1st Japanese invasion of Korea, you will see Ming and Korea navies have cannons outranged Japanese. Japanese even enlisted a few galleys from Portuguese mercenary to help them fight Ming navy. Also if you read it, you will see they mention that during the war, close quarter combat between ships are very rare.

Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean emperor all claimed to be son of heaven and Japanese emperor claim to be son of Japanese sun goddess. If you can read ancient Vietnamese script, you will see everything in Vietnam belong to Vietnamese emperors and all Vietnamese are servants of the emperor by god send.

My point is there are historical evidents that Ming army used firearm in 1355 and in this game at the beginning, Ming army have no matchlocks at all. technology penalty is fine but shouldnt they at least give Ming army a few thousand matchlocks men at the starts?