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Aramintai

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Jul 21, 2016
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So I couldn't help but wonder as to why Kyros would forbid entry to the Spires. It seems they were some sort of hubs on those continent spanning road-walls - why not reclaim and rebuild them for faster travel, at the very least?

I think they are somehow connected to the Kyros' power and he\she\it is afraid anyone else will learn of Spires' secrets and rival her rule. Maybe they're some sort of magical magnets that that can be tapped through wall-roads like magic veins? That would certainly explain Kyros' immense magical power.

The only question remains - why Kyros allowed the Fatebinder to claim them all of sudden? It seems that Kyros has plans for the Fatebinder but until devs release a DLC\add-on\sequel there's no way to answer that.
 

Shinros

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Actually it's kinda the opposite spires in actually are NOT forbidden going into the oldwalls IS but many of the oldwalls corridors connect to spires an elder fate binder speculates that kyros forbade it to make it desirable not to keep people out.

Oh and yes the story is hinting that kyros allowed you to claim them for some reason.

Myothis

"Based on what you've told me, it seems a stretch to believe these events are mere coincidence or circumstance. Kyros edict of execution was setup for SOMEONE to claim Ascension Hall... to think that Kyros did not know what would happen would be a massive underestimation of the Overlords long view."

Mythos also said a man built a shrine to kyros around a spire up north and that kyros actually visited the spire in negative 50 and if you search through the spire visions using the lore skill you get a note of a female visitor.
 
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Aramintai

Second Lieutenant
Jul 21, 2016
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Right, the Oldwalls, my bad. But still, Oldwalls are connected to the Spires and nobody has ever claimed them properly or visited their tops.
 

Shinros

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Right, the Oldwalls, my bad. But still, Oldwalls are connected to the Spires and nobody has ever claimed them properly or visited their tops.

Actually many have visited them in the past but going by the visions none of them have activated them in the fashion. Kyros forbade the oldwalls to cause someone to actually go there and look about not to keep people out. Perhaps kyros was searching for someone who could use the spires?

Also I did an edit to my old post
 

Aramintai

Second Lieutenant
Jul 21, 2016
100
26
Yes, I've read the official reasons about why they are forbidden, I'm just not buying it. Also, forbidding "dangerous" knowledge speaks of Kyros as of someone who wishes to rule over an unenlightened mob and is afraid someone will learn of something forbidden that will rival her rule.
 

Shinros

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Yes, I've read the official reasons about why they are forbidden, I'm just not buying it. Also, forbidding "dangerous" knowledge speaks of Kyros as of someone who wishes to rule over an unenlightened mob and is afraid someone will learn of something forbidden that will rival her rule.

Well I just think it's becoming more clear kyros did want someone to take the spire. I assume you know of the letter chain right? I typed up each of them.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ending-of-tyranny-spoiler.981958/page-2


Lantry even makes the point in act 3 he finds it strange why the overlord did not kill you before hand before your powers matured. If the overlord was truly worried about you the overlord would of had you killed. That's bladen marks job mark and Myothis make the express point if kyros does not want a certain Archon around her empire she has them killed before their powers came into fruition.

Hence why barely any archons have been born in the tiers.

Ashe is a clear example of this the main point if kyros does not want someone around they would be dead before they ever come into their own. Ashe was given a chance to develop his powers lead a rebellion and then kyros has him bought before him/her and ashe swears fealty. Kyros could of dealt with Ashe before he got to the rebellion stage.

Also mark was given orders to watch you according to the letters.

In the grand scheme of things I feel the PC is still "small".

Its pretty clear fact that she wanted someone to take the mountain spire and I have to agree with Myothis that kyros forbade the oldwalls not to keep people out but to entice people in.
 

demanvanwezel

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I'm of a different mind, I think kyros forbade the oldwalls because of the spires

it takes pretty powerfull magic to activate a spire so a decree that nobody touches them would inmediatly atract attention from potential rivals that something's up with the spires

now there are notable diferences between the spires in the oldwalls and the spires outside of it (I'm assuming that all "lone" spires are typical of the well)

there's no visible lines on the floor at the base and there's no engraving of that pattern to be found anywhere so nobody could find out what to do unless they'd been trying really hard, which would undoubtedly have happened if kyros had just forbidden the spires

instead now people go inside the oldwalls to find what's supposed to stay hidden but they ignore the spires because kyros doesn't forbid those so that can't be it

and from the letter chain we learn that while the spires aren't explicitly forbidden fate binders get pretty nervous about finding a way to kill you if you take too much of an interest in them

as for why he allowed you to claim the spire at the well, I think he was counting on 2 possibilities
1) either they fail and he get's rid of 2 of his greatest troublemakers, send another more sensible archon in to reclaim the tiers
2) someone claims the spire and he let's the archons battle it out amongst themselves
 
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Aramintai

Second Lieutenant
Jul 21, 2016
100
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as for why he allowed you to claim the spire at the well, I think he was counting on 2 possibilities
1) either they fail and he get's rid of 2 of his greatest troublemakers, send another more sensible archon in to reclaim the tiers
2) someone claims the spire and he let's the archons battle it out amongst themselves
Good point, looking at the Terratus map it's clear that the Tiers are the last place on the continent for Kyros to conquer. So after that true Kyros' peace can come and for that there's no need for huge unruly armies and warlord archons. Perhaps Kyros saw to that by issuing the clever edict that would either eradicate both armies and archons or decide one clear winner.
 

aono

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Actually it's kinda the opposite spires in actually are NOT forbidden going into the oldwalls IS but many of the oldwalls corridors connect to spires an elder fate binder speculates that kyros forbade it to make it desirable not to keep people out.
No. :) Kuros blocked Oldwalls saying they're dangerous (and they, well, are - look at that Banes going to kill all citizens in Crossing), but don't block Spires. So elder fatebinder speculates that, as total majority of Spires are surrounded by Oldwalls, banning Oldwalls really IS banning Spires without makes them a target for every treasure hunter who says "aha, Kyros won't block that peaceful things without reason, let's find why".
It's just a happy coincedence that in Tir you can enter some Spires not actually entering Oldwalls, but it's rare enough.
 

Shinros

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No. :) Kuros blocked Oldwalls saying they're dangerous (and they, well, are - look at that Banes going to kill all citizens in Crossing), but don't block Spires. So elder fatebinder speculates that, as total majority of Spires are surrounded by Oldwalls, banning Oldwalls really IS banning Spires without makes them a target for every treasure hunter who says "aha, Kyros won't block that peaceful things without reason, let's find why".
It's just a happy coincedence that in Tir you can enter some Spires not actually entering Oldwalls, but it's rare enough.
So in other words it's just as I said kyros forbade them to actually make them desirable not to keep people out. Since kyros wanted someone to claim the mountain spire in act 1 I personally think kyros is looking for someone who can use the spires.

A man who built a shrine to kyros around a spire said that kyros was here in negative 50 and when you search through the visions you note that a woman came here at some point but none of the visitors could use the spires like you can.
 

aono

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So in other words it's just as I said kyros forbade them to actually make them desirable not to keep people out.
Wait, wait. Kyros DIDN'T forbade Spires, because he wanted to keep people out!
I mean, imagine yourself young adventurer. There is forbidden Oldwall - you can actually understand why it's forbidden beyond unimaginal power. You're going to Oldwalls - damn Bane coming out and killing Kyros citizens. So, of course, you haven't miss all that powers lying in the Oldwalls, but a ban itself don't inspire curiousity. It's understandable.
Spires are another matter. It's actually just a stone brick pointing out to the sky. "WHY it's forbidden? I must go and learn!".
So Kyros didn't forbade Spires, because he didn't want to inspire the second way of thought. You can go to Spire, of course, be my guest. (Unofficially you will be under high scrutiny, and when you say too much you will be killed, but no ban, no.)

Why he have a need to make character (or somebody) enter Spire just now? We don't know.
 

Shinros

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Still we can agree Kyros wanted someone to claim a spire forbbiding old walls and allow spires to be investigated as you said the question is why Kyros wants this. I will make a topic with all of myothis letters.
 

aono

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Still we can agree Kyros wanted someone to claim a spire forbbiding old walls and allow spires to be investigated as you said the question is why Kyros wants this.
I'd say he don't want it as a common practice, but wanted in this particular point.
 

demanvanwezel

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Still we can agree Kyros wanted someone to claim a spire forbbiding old walls and allow spires to be investigated as you said the question is why Kyros wants this. I will make a topic with all of myothis letters.

can we actually be sure of that?

we know that speaking an edict is powerfull magic and breaking it is too and no-one has ever spoken or broken the same edict

would kyros have known that doing that would create enough magic to activate the spire?

after all what you did there was essentially the equivalent of blowing open a safe with dynamite, you smashed the spire's lock open without needing the combination

I don't think activating the spires was in kyros's original plan but afterwards it was more a "let's see where this goes and steer it a litle along the way"
after all, why need to send another archon there if you can make one on the spot that is less disfunctional then the others already there
 

Shinros

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can we actually be sure of that?

we know that speaking an edict is powerfull magic and breaking it is too and no-one has ever spoken or broken the same edict

would kyros have known that doing that would create enough magic to activate the spire?

after all what you did there was essentially the equivalent of blowing open a safe with dynamite, you smashed the spire's lock open without needing the combination

I don't think activating the spires was in kyros's original plan but afterwards it was more a "let's see where this goes and steer it a litle along the way"
after all, why need to send another archon there if you can make one on the spot that is less disfunctional then the others already there
Hmm still I do think it's clear that kyros wanted SOMEONE to take the spire in the solo path in act 3 Mark reveals that he was on orders by kyros to kill you but he should use his own judgement whether to do so. Mark then explains kyros has Archons she/he does not want around killed in infancy his second job is to recruit the wild talent so he told Tunon that he wants to watch the PC and helped you become an Archon.

Lantry makes note in act 3 he wonders why the overlord has not "dealt" with you before hand and allowed this to happen.

one part of mythos letter.

Kyros has other edicts in place through out the tiers. If you truly wish to learn more perhaps you should take it upon your self to shatter those edicts? After all, if Kyros did not wish the edicts to be broken, why include a termination clause?

Dear Myothis

I appreciate the information you are sharing.

Knowing what you know of my situation, what would you do?

-Melchiah

[Tunon favor 1]Dear Melchiah

Based on what you've told me, it seems a stretch to believe these events are mere coincidence or circumstance. Kyros edict of execution was setup for SOMEONE to claim Ascension Hall... to think that Kyros did not know what would happen would be a massive underestimation of the Overlords long view.

You have been thrust into the arena of the mighty, your options are to retreat into obscurity, suicide or rising to the occasion - I suggest the third option. (This is just my speculation I personally believe kyros told mark to observe the PC after act 1 further letter lend to this speculation. Hence why he also works so closely with you on the solo path since he also believes you are interesting per his words.)

If I were you I would use my connection to the spires to see if they will all awaken to my presence. Every tiersmen see's the spires in the horizon - if they know YOU are the master of the spires, they will see YOU each time they look at the sunrise and sunset.

Foster a reputation for power, make others fear you. This is what I've seen kyros and every other living Archon do far as long as I've lived and there's reasons for this.... there is a practical case that power and a reputation insulate you from threats, but there's the lesser known element that I can't prove but I know in my heart to be true: the fear and love of others will strengthen your magic.

The last part I inferred from my discussion with Bladen Mark. In the few times he has spoken of his gruesome work of slaying those who might rise to threaten the Overlord, he has hinted that it's easier to kill "rogue elements" before they become famed and fearsome. In my lifetime, I saw Graven Ashe change from an unknown militiamen to a fearsome general - and I assure you, he did not have the power to shield his warriors in those days when he was without title or reputation.

The Archons will never, ever discuss the origin of their powers(because such knowledge would be used against them) but I have known ALL Archons to be obessed with the presentation of power(Just look at the ending of our PC, Ashe, Tunon, Nerat etc even blade likes to let you know that he can possibly kill you at almost any moment sometimes.)

Your connection to the spires will all but guarantee the Archons will want to control or destroy you(Just look at act 3 lol kyros just got ahead of everyone and made it official for the Archons to legally do it of course this letter takes place in kinda early/middle of act 2.) it's a question of when.

Start thinking like an Archon - the Archon of spires as far as I am concerned you ARE an Archon (she calls it even before Kyros makes it official still I assume kyros knew of what you are when you claimed the first spire) - an Archon of the spires. We are quick to place labels on powers we can easily spot - and history is replete with Archons of fire and Ice - it is foolish to think that there must be a word for a thing before an Archon can control it. Other way round - the Archons show us what is possible and we must step up to their dance.




Dear Myothis(Pc's own words)

Thank you for weighing in all of this, To ask perhaps too obvious question... if I am such an anomaly, such a threat why hasn't the overlord dealt with me right away? An edict or a simple request to bladen mark would be no small threat... neither seems to have happened yet.

What is your take on this? Why hasn't kyros dealt with me?

-Melchiah

Response

Archon Melchiah (Yes she calls you that before it becomes official since you describe the spires and whats happening she determines you are an Archon which is true lol)

Allow me to address you by a title before it becomes fashionable to do so - I pride myself as a woman to stay ahead of the trends.

Why kyros smites others and allows others to exist is a question we all ponder. The Overlord can certainly appear arbitary and if I've learned anything, that's the point Kyros is intentionally aloof and distant - both in matters of personal security and because if you have to wrangle the most powerful entities of Terratus, you'd need to keep them from getting too comfortable.

To me the most obvious answer is that kyros knows EXACTLY what you are doing(I believe mark is reporting what you are doing to kyros since he helps you on this path on the solo run oh and she says exactly in CAPS in the letter) - she probably approves of your actions and is likely working at every opportunity to create a situation where you think you are working for your own self - interest while satisfying her ambitions as well.

You have to consider an important detail: there is nowhere left in Terratus to conquer now that the tiers are in the overlords grasp. What would the great generals do in a time of peace? The voice of nerat is barely tolerable when you have need of a spy master, why keep around such a monster when you no longer have need for such a gruesome weapon?

I would argue it is in kyros interest that the tiers be a costly invasion that claims the lives of many Archons as possible - not enough meat on the tiers to keep too many sharks sated for long.(remember kyros decree in act 3!)

Kyros ordered everyone to take ascension hall or die - the "or die" must of been the acceptable option correct? If I hazard a guess I'd say you have the unspoken backing of the overlord - it's not like Bladen Mark can't find you whenever he wants.


Tunon and Mark are clearly still reporting to kyros of the PC's activities and I assume they knew the PC was a possible Archon since the start of act 2 I personally believe this is the case due to Mark saying if you end up fighting Tunon he would be "forced" to kill you. Plus in act 3 when you use your edict kyros does next to nothing to defend the capital from it and nerat tells you don't get cormftable there is always someone greater than you. Which is true I personally think that all has happened is going by kyros designs. It's clear she wants the chorus and disfavored dealt with or bought down a peg.
 

demanvanwezel

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I think that's more a consequence of you taking the spire rather then that you taking the spire was the original plan

a big deal is made of the fact that you proclaimed and ended the same edict, I think that's what caused the spire to awaken, if anyone else had ended the edict then it's very likely that the spire would have done nothing

personally I think the plan was for everyone (especially the archons) to die in that valley, after all, the rebels held out for 2 months, what are the chances that they'll fall in the next 8 days
and hey if they didn't then just wait for the next oppurtunity
hell, they do just that with the trial, send a fatebinder to investigate the various infractions of the law both armies have made, execute the one that's guilty and voila, one archon left to rule the tiers
it also explains why they won't let you finger both archons as guilty since they need one archon alive despite how much evidence you've gathered against him

it's quite clear that kyros wanted one or both archons to be gone because they threaten the stability of the realm with their little powerplays

you claiming the spire was probably an unintended side effect but kyros seems the pragmatic sort who first sees if he can use something before he get's rid of it
mark and tunon are probably explicitly told to keep a close eye on you since you're an unaccounted factor in the plan
 

Shinros

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I think that's more a consequence of you taking the spire rather then that you taking the spire was the original plan

a big deal is made of the fact that you proclaimed and ended the same edict, I think that's what caused the spire to awaken, if anyone else had ended the edict then it's very likely that the spire would have done nothing

personally I think the plan was for everyone (especially the archons) to die in that valley, after all, the rebels held out for 2 months, what are the chances that they'll fall in the next 8 days
and hey if they didn't then just wait for the next oppurtunity
hell, they do just that with the trial, send a fatebinder to investigate the various infractions of the law both armies have made, execute the one that's guilty and voila, one archon left to rule the tiers
it also explains why they won't let you finger both archons as guilty since they need one archon alive despite how much evidence you've gathered against him

it's quite clear that kyros wanted one or both archons to be gone because they threaten the stability of the realm with their little powerplays

you claiming the spire was probably an unintended side effect but kyros seems the pragmatic sort who first sees if he can use something before he get's rid of it
mark and tunon are probably explicitly told to keep a close eye on you since you're an unaccounted factor in the plan

I see your point actually.

Oh I do think it's clear that kyros wants nerat and Ashe gone hence why Mark gives you a thumbs up if you go the solo route. Even Calio at the start of act 3 says giving Ashe and Nerat half of the tiers each would be a recipe for trouble. Ashe would be useless after the war is over and as myothis said on nerat

I do think in the future if we get to meet Kyros I suspect marks favor will be slightly tied to Kyros or we get some bonus favor for keeping Tunon and Mark alive. I mean you can say to Tunon that you are still loyal to kyros conquest.

People have said on other routes where you side with chorus or disfavored you never really get the chance to talk to Mark. I overlooked this bit.

You have to consider an important detail: there is nowhere left in Terratus to conquer now that the tiers are in the overlords grasp. What would the great generals do in a time of peace? The voice of nerat is barely tolerable when you have need of a spy master, why keep around such a monster when you no longer have need for such a gruesome weapon?


It's also quite clear kyros is using the PC to kill both of them as you said. Plus mark gains favor if you get one of them pronounced guilty that you would kill them yourself and I think casting the edict at the end is showing kyros you are the real deal hence kyros does nothing to protect the capital when you cast it.
 
Last edited:

Vind7

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It's also quite clear kyros is using the PC to kill both of them as you said. Plus mark gains favor if you get one of them pronounced guilty that you would kill them yourself and I think casting the edict at the end is showing kyros you are the real deal hence kyros does nothing to protect the capital when you cast it.
Agree on this point as Kyros actions with "do or die" edict and then "king of the hill" tiers archon choosing while he readies armies to clear it all up with another archon all parts of the same plan.
 

aono

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Agree on this point as Kyros actions with "do or die" edict and then "king of the hill" tiers archon choosing while he readies armies to clear it all up with another archon all parts of the same plan.
I'm not sure.
Of course, it can be a great plan - if Kyros is a man who elder Fatebinder suppose him to be, sure. It takes a lot of long vision, but...
But, firstly, Kyros himself can be somebody more like Voices of Nerat, not like Tunon. I mean, nothing can really say he ISN'T some shizo with great magical power that he uses to control another Archons, like Tunon. So he can have a lot of different controversal plans, completed with paranoia and hysteria.

Secondary... After all, Mark says, that you're the first man/woman who managed to proclaim Edict AND end the very same Edict, so it's possible Kyros just didn't know what can happen. And he didn't really know WHO exactly will claim a spire.
By the way, I believe Kyros thought it will be Ashe or Nerat claiming (and by such it's not awaited to be such "Edict proclaimed and ended by one person" power surge); after all, he knew his generals, and I don't believe he really believed they let some Tunon pest to take their victory. So, he believed, some established Archon will claim it, but no special power surge. Of course, he wanted to finish one of armies - maybe he just became bored. I know about "nothing to conquest" theory, but really, somebody need to garrison conquered lands and defeat rebels, so it can be a competition "who stays as a garrison force".
When power surge happened, Kyros, again, could think "hey, I know about Spires activation, this guy activated a Spire, so "something" happens" - if that happens is Edict dispel effect. Maybe it's just awakening of Archon powers, why not?.. we don't know a lot about Archons and their genesis. So, Kyros thought "aha, it's intresting, another Archon for my collection, let him play and see what happen!"
And then, in Act 3, Kyros just, well, was pissed with you constantly messing with his rulings. You can convince Tunon you're not guilty in violating laws, but laws and Kyros will shouldn't be absolutly same. So your using loopholes in rules can, actually, piss Kyros even more - "you're not just rebel, you're even MOCKING me doing so?!".
And then, when you just destroyed opposition and use an Edict on Kyros' capital, the guy just scared.
 

Shinros

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I don't think kyros is "scared" of you nerat even gives you advice that there is always someone "greater" than you and several npc's in the game make the express point if kyros wanted you truly dead you would be dead. I would laugh if kyros is doing all of this to prepare an invasion from some other continent.

The PC makes the point that one edict or a simple request to bladen mark would be enough to end you yet kyros does nothing. What mark says to you in act 3 and 2 makes me believe he might be assessing you for kyros.

In the grand scheme of things look at the tiers compared to the rest of the known empire kyros could of crushed you any time he/she wanted.

My personal speculation if we meet kyros and I do think we ARE going to meet kyros how you treat tunon and mark will be important to kyros favor/wrath. Honestly going through the history of all the Archons kyros allows them to do crazy or messed up stuff to see if they are the real deal. Plus it's strange in the ending when you cast you smaller scale edict(yes it's smaller and weaker compared to kyros) kyros does nothing against it.

They make note of the people in capital wondering why kyros is doing nothing.

Then kyros pulls the army back the PC says if you can't show kyros that you can cast your version of an edict Kyros will keep attacking you making me personally think that the Archon of ruin was there to sweep up if there was no clear victor and you doing that in my opinion was showing kyros you are the real deal. Since in the end you think of what kyros next response will be.

Kyros is planning "something" since if I was an overlord and many npc's make the point(it's kyros normal policy) if I wanted something gone it would be gone before it becomes a problem.

Myothis says you have the overlords silent backing.