Terrain landscaping feature fails

[Grapplehoeker]

I should first say that I both love and hate this update. I like the quays and floodwalls, and the injection of a ton of new props and artifacts. But this new terrain landscaping tool and the way that the terrain has been reconfigured in order to use it, just sucks!

The argument for making a distinction between major terraforming in the map editor and limited mayoral powers of landscaping by shifting soil from one part of the map to another fails. It fails because it is too restrictive to creativity. Until now, the player could choose how much power they had to play with by using or refusing to use mods such as the default Unlock All and Unlimited Wealth mods.

It makes me wonder if the devs were influenced by the game Godus, which used almost the same principle of limited 'pushing/pulling' of each terrain level. The premise in that game was that you did have god powers to transform your world. It was designed that way for one finger manipulation of the terrain on a touch screen, not as a means to limit the power of transformation as CO are intending. The dirt/soil limited capacity was just as annoying in Godus as it is here. It serves no function other than to create more tedious labour.

By providing a terrain landscaping tool with limited functionality but without allowing the player to choose how powerful that can be applied, removes that freedom of choice. Why would I have to run through a tedious routine of shifting dirt from one part of the map to another if I was also able to use Unlimited Wealth? Even without use of the wealth mod, it isn't hard to accumulate millions of Cim$ and with those resources a mayor should be able to afford to create major changes to the terrain without having to dig and fill, dig and fill dig and fill.... ad nauseam.

Also, why on Earth wasn't the water tool implemented? This is a huge oversight, particularly when the emphasis of this update is canals! This omission forces me to use a terrain landscaping mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=502750307) so that I can use the water tool when and where I choose, because the terrain landscaper that was implemented into the game is incomplete.

Lastly, the way that the terrain has been reconfigured is more than annoying. I will grant that the topographical isometric is a nice touch. However, the terrain now behaves quite oddly. It's 'sticky' for want of a better description. It adheres to tunnels and attempts to pull draggable features such as roads to follow the terrain rather than remain at the elevation levels I stipulate. Quite often now I have to lay a tunnel section by section just to prevent a road/rail set at -12m from popping up to the surface if I were to try to drag it, even if along that length the surface was flat and the level distance remained -12m. This makes tunnelling which was a wonderfully easy task before, now a laborious one.

I'm sorry CO, but this feature requires a rethink.

 

[John Bon Jovi]

Somehow I have to admid. And unfortunatly is the extra landscaping tools mod a game crasher for me since the patch.....

 

[Evie HJ]

The updated version of extra landscaping tools work great for me (and is integrated with the 1.4 landscaping tools), though it's true some people have reported crashes.

 

[muttonnoir]

Gotta agree Grapplehoeker, the new update is welcomed. The inclusion of fine road heights, canals, quays and extras such as click and drag walls (please will someone skin hedges/brick walls) provide an excellent addition to the core game that have lots of potential for further development. The landscaping tools are... FRUSTRATING! So fiddly to work with and takes ages to create any serious terraforming that I've given up on any serious large "civil engineering" projects in-game. Its just not worth the hassle. I do like the effect when "scooping out" soil- creates a great effect for quarries etc- so long as its small scale. I love the new topographical map which looks stunning. All in all the patch is 9/10- held back by the terra forming

 

[Simcity5]

Not tried it but Its kind of sounds like simcity 4. You arent a god, so any terraforming in game is limited to minor architectural street level stuff and should be expensive cos its the bulldozers that are doing it.

Edit: Had a quick go, cant see a problem with it at all. It works even better than sc4s mayor mode terraform.

 

[vukica]

idk, i think it's okay.

any bloodypenguin will fix extra landscaping, i have no doubt about that.

 

[Grapplehoeker]

Not tried it but Its kind of sounds like simcity 4. You arent a god, so any terraforming in game is limited to minor architectural street level stuff and should be expensive cos its the bulldozers that are doing it.

Edit: Had a quick go, cant see a problem with it at all. It works even better than sc4s mayor mode terraform.

Building canal works or even engineering a dam construction and all of the terrain landscaping that entails, is not minor in any way. It is a huge engineering task and extremely expensive. As I said, if I can easily accrue millions of Cim$, then cost isn't an obstacle. That just leaves the actual engineering task of digging it all out, levelling and raising where necessary. I should be able to do so without tediously digging and dumping bits of the landscape piecemeal back and forth until completion.
I would like to see the soil limitaton removed completely or at least as a compromise, make the limit configurable by the player. That way you retain the limit, but allow the player to choose how limiting that would be.

 

[Quaade]

Where does all the soil go if not limited? And if you do what you ask... Why not just pic or create a map that reflects your need? if there is next to no limits on each map-type, you could essentially with endless funds create similar maps anyway with funds... Why not then pick another map or create one you can play with, if the terrain bothers you that much that you need to completely change it... The terraforming, as I see it, is a means to make small adjustments to make your city look pretty, to change some of the coast to make it add up just enough for your well-planned city to have a great seaside visually... Not to entirely remove mountains and lakes just for the fun of it.

If you dislike the map that much, that you need such massive change, create your own or play another it´s an easier way to do it also

 

[boformer]

I love the way they implemented it: It is expensive, soil is limited. It is one of those systems that could never have been done by modders. And it can still be modded!

Also, why on Earth wasn't the water tool implemented? This is a huge oversight, particularly when the emphasis of this update is canals!

For me water is a godmode feature. Someone released a clean waste water pipe on the Workshop. That's more realistic.

I would like to see the soil limitaton removed completely or at least as a compromise, make the limit configurable by the player. That way you retain the limit, but allow the player to choose how limiting that would be.

That's why we got mods!

 

[Grapplehoeker]

Where does all the soil go if not limited? And if you do what you ask... Why not just pic or create a map that reflects your need? if there is next to no limits on each map-type, you could essentially with endless funds create similar maps anyway with funds... Why not then pick another map or create one you can play with, if the terrain bothers you that much that you need to completely change it... The terraforming, as I see it, is a means to make small adjustments to make your city look pretty, to change some of the coast to make it add up just enough for your well-planned city to have a great seaside visually... Not to entirely remove mountains and lakes just for the fun of it.

If you dislike the map that much, that you need such massive change, create your own or play another it´s an easier way to do it also

Hmm... I don't think you're aware of my cities or the maps that I design for them. I do a little bit more than tweak a beach
Yin Yang City


La Motta



These are monumental engineering projects that involve a huge amount of terrain landscaping, during the map design, the construction and after completion of the build.
It isn't a matter of disliking a map. It's simply disliking having to move this amount of earth with a teaspoon.

 

[Grapplehoeker]

I love the way they implemented it: It is expensive, soil is limited. It is one of those systems that could never have been done by modders. And it can still be modded!
For me water is a godmode feature. Someone released a clean waste water pipe on the Workshop. That's more realistic.
That's why we got mods!

Water spawners aren't just a means of adding water, they are extremely useful for maintaining water surface levels and usage as drains. This makes them invaluable for all kinds of purposes during a construction phase, not just during the map design.

Take these simple reservoirs for example, let alone the mighty Hexadam in the background.



Engineers manipulate water all the time in the construction industry. Creating coffer dams to enable the foundation of skyscrapers over water, for example.

These aren't 'godmode powers' - this is engineering.
Yes we have mods and for many of those mods I am truly grateful.
I'm simply making a case for implementing a full featured landscape tool which includes water, if they are going to implement one at all

 

[Quaade]

These aren't 'godmode powers' - this is engineering.
Yes we have mods and for many of those mods I am truly grateful.
I'm simply making a case for implementing a full featured landscape tool which includes water, if they are going to implement one at all

But that picture you could do with the limited godmode powers So personally I can´t see the point in the argument

 

[Quaade]

Hmm... I don't think you're aware of my cities or the maps that I design for them. I do a little bit more than tweak a beach
Yin Yang City

Sry... didn´t see that... Yet wouldn´t it be better to create your own map then? I know you can´t make it "perfect" and there will be some adjustments, but that´s what the terraforming is for, to adjust the map your are playing on, not change it whole

City and idea looks great (wish I could make cities great)... But think you would get further by making a map instead of terraforming the whole thing... It might even be the reason why there is 2 ways to change a map ;-)

 

[boformer]

These are monumental engineering projects that involve a huge amount of terrain landscaping, during the map design, the construction and after completion of the build.
It isn't a matter of disliking a map. It's simply disliking having to move this amount of earth with a teaspoon.

I respect that opinion. Luckily there are still the "godmode" tools that you need for your cities

 

[muttonnoir]

Agree with Grapplehoeker (yet again). The ability to access the full set of terraforming tools- without any penalties- allows players to unleash their creativity and undertake some terrific civil engineering projects that enhance and improve their cities. The argument that "if you don't like the map make your own" is, respectfully, rather silly and completely misses the point. Gamers are merely simulating "real life" grand projects where humans exploit and reshape the terrain to meet the needs of their citizens.

 

[Quaade]

Agree with Grapplehoeker (yet again). The ability to access the full set of terraforming tools- without any penalties- allows players to unleash their creativity and undertake some terrific civil engineering projects that enhance and improve their cities. The argument that "if you don't like the map make your own" is, respectfully, rather silly and completely misses the point. Gamers are merely simulating "real life" grand projects where humans exploit and reshape the terrain to meet the needs of their citizens.

I have only rarely heard of a project that goes "oh, that mountain... Let´s just remove it all", projects are made around terrain and yes sometimes on a smaller scale there are some great engineering that goes into it... Dubai comes off as some of those projects, but in most of the world they are tiny and could be easily done with the current in-game terraforming... Part of planning a city in reality is about taking terrain into the account... And yes, if you don´t like the terrain make another map if you really dislike the map given to you, there are plenty of maps to choose from by CO and modders

 

[muttonnoir]

Psst, I'll let you in on a secret... IT'S A GAME! Not real life ffs! People are free to play as they see fit, we don't need the Cities Skylines Gestapo telling what we can and can't do

 

[Grapplehoeker]

I have only rarely heard of a project that goes "oh, that mountain... Let´s just remove it all", projects are made around terrain and yes sometimes on a smaller scale there are some great engineering that goes into it... Dubai comes off as some of those projects, but in most of the world they are tiny and could be easily done with the current in-game terraforming... Part of planning a city in reality is about taking terrain into the account... And yes, if you don´t like the terrain make another map if you really dislike the map given to you, there are plenty of maps to choose from by CO and modders

With all due respect you are completely missing the point.
Currently, CO provide 14 maps and I have used them all.
I have also edited 5 of them.
I have a further 35 maps created by other players.
And I have 28 of my own maps.
So, I am well aware of what is available and the issue I am discussing about the in game landscaping tools has nothing to do with disliking a map or changing it.

It has to do with two things, the missing water tool and the soil limitation.

I am not going to bother listing all of the ways that I used landscaping in those 82 maps I've built on, because it's irrelevant and would take several pages.
I will just use as one example of the types of landscaping that I needed to do after the map was finished and construction had begun, in the image I posted above,



In the background, you see the Hexadam, which is a massive feat of engineering of 6 interlinked max output dams.
I had to use a huge amount of earth in the construction of the dam and had to move a huge amount of earth to sculpt the drainage for it. This construction wouldn't have been possible without water spawners.
You also see two hexagonal irrigation reservoirs that are simple shaped floodwalls filled with water spawners to maintain the surface level.
Here you also see about 20 hexagons that I raised by 5m and bevelled the edges.
Even the 20 or so hexagons raised to a meagre height of 5m (there are approximately 80 more that you don't see) resulted in a huge amount of earth to be moved.
I also later, softened and bevelled the edge of that elliptical plateau you see in the background that rises another 50m above the foreground. That was a massive amount of earth moving! That couldn't have been done in the map creation phase as I had to wait until I had built upon the plateau to the edges before bevelling.

Now in order to build all of this I needed a water tool which the new terrain landscaping tool, sorely needs but, wasn't implemented.
All of the earth moving due to the soil limitation made it extremely, and unnecessarily laborious. It has nothing to do with cost. It was tedious!
You could say, "ah yeah but that's just you and you're an exception". But I'm not. Skyestorme's Aquitania build that CO showcased in their 1st Anniversary vid would have been near to impossible to accomplish with the built in landscaper and the same can be said of Yuttho's cites and many others. Yes, not everyone landscapes as aggressively and engineers on a grand scale as we do, but that is also my point. Why provide us with a teaspoon, which would be fine to tweak your beaches with but not allow us to choose to go large if we need to.

 

[boformer]

Psst, I'll let you in on a secret... IT'S A GAME! Not real life ffs! People are free to play as they see fit, we don't need the Cities Skylines Gestapo telling what we can and can't do

You are right, it's a game, a balance between realistic simulation and sandbox. In this game you got limited money and limited powers. And the soil limitation is just one example of it. Another example: You can not decide who enters or leaves your city, what houses are built. You only got a limited set of tools to influence all that. That's the challenge.

For the people who don't like this balance, there are mods: Mods which make the simulation more challenging, like Hard Mode or Rush Hour, and mods which do the opposite, for example Unlimited Money, Unlock All and the advanced terraform mods.

 

[muttonnoir]

You are right, it's a game, a balance between realistic simulation and sandbox. In this game you got limited money and limited powers. And the soil limitation is just one example of it. Another example: You can not decide who enters or leaves your city, what houses are built. You only got a limited set of tools to influence all that. That's the challenge.

For the people who don't like this balance, there are mods: Mods which make the simulation more challenging, like Hard Mode or Rush Hour, and mods which do the opposite, for example Unlimited Money, Unlock All and the advanced terraform mods.

Hi Boformer, my previous post was in response to Quaade & IN SUPPORT of your post- The game allows for players to explore the map and various set of tools creatively. I love undertaking large scale projects and agree that the new ingame landscaping tools severely restrict my creativity, spoiling my game experience.