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14lokk1

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To the best of my knowledge, when you change a division template from, say light tanks to medium tanks, all the light tanks go to the stockpile, and the medium tanks get replaced from your existing stockpile of medium tanks. Why does this happen? Surely it is better to have medium tanks roll off the production line and 1 for 1 replace the light tanks in the division? I ask this because I switch templates the moment I research medium tanks, and it is immensely frustrating when all my divisions send their light tanks home, to wait for medium tanks which don't yet exist.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken in my understanding of the mechanics.
 

Emden1

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Gradually grow your Medium Tank Divisions.... swap out one battalion at a time after you duplicate your division, esp if you are at war. At least that is what I do, to minimize impact.
 

browd

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You understand correctly, and it's the way the game works. The game regards light tanks and medium tanks as different equipment and, in this case, is just doing what you have told it to do -- if you decided to replace all of your infantry divisions' line artillery with line AT, the game would do as you instruct, even if you have no line AT built -- returning all of that artillery to the stockpile and patiently waiting for you to build enough AT.

That is is why instantly changing your tank templates as soon as you research medium tanks (before you've even produced your first medium tank) is a very bad idea.

Alternatives include:

1. Once you have enough mediums built to fill one brigade across all of your light tank divisions, revise the existing tank template to swap out one light for one medium brigade. At that point, all of your tank divisions will have one brigade of mediums and the rest lights. As you build more mediums, swap out another brigade. Rinse and repeat until done.

2. Duplicate your light template and change the duplicate template to include only medium tanks. As you build enough mediums to convert one full division, switch one division from the light template to the medium template. At that point, one division will be pure mediums and the others will still be all lights. As you build more mediums, swap out another division. Rinse and repeat until done.
 

Dalwin

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Instead of swapping templates when you get a new model, or even converting one battalion at a time, copy the template for the light tanks and design your medium tank division. At that point no divisions will be converted. This allows your light tanks to stay in the field.

Monitor your stockpile of medium tanks. When you have enough to convert one division do the one in whichever map position seems best.
 

14lokk1

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You understand correctly, and it's the way the game works. The game regards light tanks and medium tanks as different equipment and, in this case, is just doing what you have told it to do -- if you decided to replace all of your infantry divisions' line artillery with line AT, the game would do as you instruct, even if you have no line AT built -- returning all of that artillery to the stockpile and patiently waiting for you to build enough AT.

That is is why instantly changing your tank templates as soon as you research medium tanks (before you've even produced your first medium tank) is a very bad idea.

Alternatives include:

1. Once you have enough mediums built to fill one brigade across all of your light tank divisions, revise the existing tank template to swap out one light for one medium brigade. At that point, all of your tank divisions will have one brigade of mediums and the rest lights. As you build more mediums, swap out another brigade. Rinse and repeat until done.

2. Duplicate your light template and change the duplicate template to include only medium tanks. As you build enough mediums to convert one full division, switch one division from the light template to the medium template. At that point, one division will be pure mediums and the others will still be all lights. As you build more mediums, swap out another division. Rinse and repeat until done.

Yeah, alright. I know that there are 'workarounds', but that begs the question: Why on earth will my divisions send all my light tanks home when there are no mediums delivered yet? It seems like this is a flaw in game design…
 

browd

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By that logic, you shouldn't ever need to switch templates -- if you have a tank template, it just populates your tank brigades with the "best" (whatever that means) tank that's available. Early game, that means lights, so your tank divisions are filled with light tanks. Once they are full of lights, and you start producing mediums, your lights should be auto-replaced with mediums as the come off the line. Of course, if you happen to want only lights in those divisions, you would be out of luck.

You would probably respond with "No, no, not at all. If my template says lights, it should only get lights. But if I revise a tank template to switch from lights to mediums, the game should recognize that I'm about to do something foolish, since I have no stockpiled medium tanks, and essentially overrule my instructions, keeping lights in my division (even though I've removed my light brigades from that template) until mediums are actually produced because, well, the game knows what I really intended to have happen."

In essence, you're asking for "oops" protection, where the game will overrule a player's clear instructions? Um, no thanks.
 

Dalwin

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This is the point where if I were 30 years younger I'd say "git gud."

Converting a template when you should have copied it instead is a mistake almost all of us have made at least once. The very fact that it can be painful (especially in MP) makes it a lesson you don't quickly forget.
 

14lokk1

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By that logic, you shouldn't ever need to switch templates -- if you have a tank template, it just populates your tank brigades with the "best" (whatever that means) tank that's available. Early game, that means lights, so your tank divisions are filled with light tanks. Once they are full of lights, and you start producing mediums, your lights should be auto-replaced with mediums as the come off the line. Of course, if you happen to want only lights in those divisions, you would be out of luck.

You would probably respond with "No, no, not at all. If my template says lights, it should only get lights. But if I revise a tank template to switch from lights to mediums, the game should recognize that I'm about to do something foolish, since I have no stockpiled medium tanks, and essentially overrule my instructions, keeping lights in my division (even though I've removed my light brigades from that template) until mediums are actually produced because, well, the game knows what I really intended to have happen."

In essence, you're asking for "oops" protection, where the game will overrule a player's clear instructions? Um, no thanks.

No, that is not at all what I'm asking for. In WW2, panzer divions meant to be made up of primarily Panzer III's, but in reality, there weren't enough of them to go around, so most of them had to make do with Panzer I/II's. Now, Panzer III's are medium tanks, and when you don't have enough medium tanks, your divisions should still use light tanks. As more tanks rolled off the production line they would be inserted into these divisions and replaced those Panzer I/II LT's. This is especially frustrating as in the game, essentially what happens is they send all their light tanks home, then wait for the medium tanks to arrive while on the front. I feel the behavior should instead be, 'well even though we are now a medium tank brigade, we'll still keep whatever light tanks we have until the medium tanks roll off the production line and get here. That way we don't get ROFL stomped by the enemy'. Even if they don't get reinforced with LT's or whatever, they shouldn't lose all of them immediately. Also I feel this behavior should apply to all other 'classes' of battalions such as AT/AA/ART, MOT/MECH. If anything, I feel that if you REALLY want your light tanks elsewhere, then there should be a toggle or a button that says 'remove all equipment of ______ type from division' or something.

This mechanic of equipment being 'replaced' is seen already in the game in the form of LT3 replacing LT2's, they don't get all sent home at once. And since medium tanks aren't that much different to light tanks, I don't see why the same cannot be done. This should of course also apply when replacing MT with HT, or the reverse, in fact, I feel that the battalions should take all the equipment of the 'correct' type, then start to take other equipment which is of the same class etc.

Finally, when thinking about this more, on division reinforcement. When a tank rolls off the production line, I feel the tank should first go to the first division which has a shortage of the exact equipment type that is needed, then it goes to the divion which needs the equipment of the same class, only AFTER that does it go to the stockpile. That would make more sense to me.

And no, an oops button which overrules a player is not what I'm asking for. This suggestion does not overrule the player in any way, and does not affect you if you do stockpile equipment before changing division type, as you're doing currently. This suggestion simply removes the absurd conditions of all of one type of equipment being sent home at once and also reduces the need to micro manage this 'equipment changing' as it does not add to the game.

I would like to hear your further opinions on this matter.
 

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That is simply not how the game works. Light tanks, medium tanks and heavy tanks are all in different upgrade paths. You are saying that one should upgrade to the other but that would be a terrible design. It is true in history that lights and mediums got mixed into the same divisions and nothing stops you from doing that, if you want to, by only converting some battalions to medium.

You would not want it to be a single upgrade path in game, however, since as soon as any mediums showed up your light tank division would lose its speed advantage. Being fast is in the long run almost the only good attribute to light tanks. They are markedly inferior in most other ways. Separation into light and medium tank divisions is not entirely historical but it is much more effective from a game design point of view.

In reality separate maneuver elements in a division could take tactical advantage of speed. Since this game has a division as its smallest maneuver element, historically mixed divisions would not be reflected well. Encouraging segregation does more to promote distinction between the tank types than mixing would. Your plan would turn them all into a bland mush instead of being distinct.
 

14lokk1

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That is simply not how the game works. Light tanks, medium tanks and heavy tanks are all in different upgrade paths. You are saying that one should upgrade to the other but that would be a terrible design. It is true in history that lights and mediums got mixed into the same divisions and nothing stops you from doing that, if you want to, by only converting some battalions to medium.

You would not want it to be a single upgrade path in game, however, since as soon as any mediums showed up your light tank division would lose its speed advantage. Being fast is in the long run almost the only good attribute to light tanks. They are markedly inferior in most other ways. Separation into light and medium tank divisions is not entirely historical but it is much more effective from a game design point of view.

In reality separate maneuver elements in a division could take tactical advantage of speed. Since this game has a division as its smallest maneuver element, historically mixed divisions would not be reflected well. Encouraging segregation does more to promote distinction between the tank types than mixing would. Your plan would turn them all into a bland mush instead of being distinct.

I'm not saying one should upgrade into another. I know this is how the game works, I'm saying it shouldn't work like this.I'm not saying that medium tanks should be upgraded into heavy tanks or anything like that. But that when a certain type of equipment isn't available, it should take from an 'approximate replacement'. The point I made about upgrading division templates is only the most obvious example of this flaw. The reason that I believe that light tanks could be substituted for medium tanks is that no country in its right mind would send all its tanks home while having its divisions fighting on 'virtual tanks' which don't exist yet. I would also argue that if you don't have any light tanks but have heavy tanks as surplus, the medium tanks could take from heavy tanks, etc. This is based on the principle that 'any tank is better than no tank'. As for keeping the distinction, I have no problem with different tank divisions, but when equipment is replaced by a different type, there should be a sliding scale where a medium tank division with all light tanks would have the same stats as a light tank division, and when its 50% then its half way. This way, its still better to put the type of tank you want in the template (not just medium all the time), but when a certain type of tank isn't available, you don't have you divisions fighting using tanks that haven't been produced yet. Doesn't it ever bother you that your medium tank divisions would rather fight using 0/750 medium tanks than just grabbing a couple of the thousands of light tanks you have lying around?
 

Zwirbaum

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I'm not saying one should upgrade into another. I know this is how the game works, I'm saying it shouldn't work like this.I'm not saying that medium tanks should be upgraded into heavy tanks or anything like that. But that when a certain type of equipment isn't available, it should take from an 'approximate replacement'. The point I made about upgrading division templates is only the most obvious example of this flaw. The reason that I believe that light tanks could be substituted for medium tanks is that no country in its right mind would send all its tanks home while having its divisions fighting on 'virtual tanks' which don't exist yet. I would also argue that if you don't have any light tanks but have heavy tanks as surplus, the medium tanks could take from heavy tanks, etc. This is based on the principle that 'any tank is better than no tank'. As for keeping the distinction, I have no problem with different tank divisions, but when equipment is replaced by a different type, there should be a sliding scale where a medium tank division with all light tanks would have the same stats as a light tank division, and when its 50% then its half way. This way, its still better to put the type of tank you want in the template (not just medium all the time), but when a certain type of tank isn't available, you don't have you divisions fighting using tanks that haven't been produced yet. Doesn't it ever bother you that your medium tank divisions would rather fight using 0/750 medium tanks than just grabbing a couple of the thousands of light tanks you have lying around?
Or... just refit divisions when you have enough equipment to be refitted on the scale you want (Need 300 medium tanks for my panzer divisions? Wait until I have those 300 in stockpile). Or refit them while stopping their offensive so that they do not enter combat with no light tanks and medium tanks.
 

14lokk1

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Or... just refit divisions when you have enough equipment to be refitted on the scale you want (Need 300 medium tanks for my panzer divisions? Wait until I have those 300 in stockpile). Or refit them while stopping their offensive so that they do not enter combat with no light tanks and medium tanks.

Yeah, but you see, that requires micro that does not add anything to the game, you need to individually select each battalion and change them as equipment becomes available. Wouldn't you agree that a system that I proposed is superior to what is currently implemented?
 

Zwirbaum

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Yeah, but you see, that requires micro that does not add anything to the game, you need to individually select each battalion and change them as equipment becomes available. Wouldn't you agree that a system that I proposed is superior to what is currently implemented?

You can phase out light tanks battalion per battalion in division for medium tank battalions, this way, you only lose 60 light tanks (assuming division was already 100% strength which means they were probably no fighting at all, or fighting someone who doesn't fight back properly - otherwise you only send back tanks that would overflow the new limit). And sooner or later new medium tanks will flow in to the divisions.

You also have information when modifying template what effect on current stockpile it will have, so you can see that and make decision before hand whether you wamt to upgrade 1,2,3 etc. Batalions in panzer division to new type, or no at all, because stockpile of mediums is still too low.

After all I don't see the problem with current way it works.
 

Dalwin

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Yeah, but you see, that requires micro that does not add anything to the game, you need to individually select each battalion and change them as equipment becomes available. Wouldn't you agree that a system that I proposed is superior to what is currently implemented?
If that is micro to you, then I suppose you prefer to set up battle plans that are just one big line under a field marshal and when the war starts hit go.

Most of the players here do not see the most basic of interactions with their forces as being micro. I think your definition of that word is very far from the average player's. Your ideas of how things "should" be in this regard are not going to meet with much acceptance. I know I am far from the only one who disagrees with you entirely. If the game system controlled things for you to the degree you seem to desire, it would essentially play itself. I see little reason to want such a thing.
 

TheOrangeGuy

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No, that is not at all what I'm asking for. In WW2, panzer divions meant to be made up of primarily Panzer III's, but in reality, there weren't enough of them to go around, so most of them had to make do with Panzer I/II's. Now, Panzer III's are medium tanks, and when you don't have enough medium tanks, your divisions should still use light tanks. As more tanks rolled off the production line they would be inserted into these divisions and replaced those Panzer I/II LT's. This is especially frustrating as in the game, essentially what happens is they send all their light tanks home, then wait for the medium tanks to arrive while on the front. I feel the behavior should instead be, 'well even though we are now a medium tank brigade, we'll still keep whatever light tanks we have until the medium tanks roll off the production line and get here. That way we don't get ROFL stomped by the enemy'. Even if they don't get reinforced with LT's or whatever, they shouldn't lose all of them immediately. Also I feel this behavior should apply to all other 'classes' of battalions such as AT/AA/ART, MOT/MECH. If anything, I feel that if you REALLY want your light tanks elsewhere, then there should be a toggle or a button that says 'remove all equipment of ______ type from division' or something.

This mechanic of equipment being 'replaced' is seen already in the game in the form of LT3 replacing LT2's, they don't get all sent home at once. And since medium tanks aren't that much different to light tanks, I don't see why the same cannot be done. This should of course also apply when replacing MT with HT, or the reverse, in fact, I feel that the battalions should take all the equipment of the 'correct' type, then start to take other equipment which is of the same class etc.

Finally, when thinking about this more, on division reinforcement. When a tank rolls off the production line, I feel the tank should first go to the first division which has a shortage of the exact equipment type that is needed, then it goes to the divion which needs the equipment of the same class, only AFTER that does it go to the stockpile. That would make more sense to me.

And no, an oops button which overrules a player is not what I'm asking for. This suggestion does not overrule the player in any way, and does not affect you if you do stockpile equipment before changing division type, as you're doing currently. This suggestion simply removes the absurd conditions of all of one type of equipment being sent home at once and also reduces the need to micro manage this 'equipment changing' as it does not add to the game.

I would like to hear your further opinions on this matter.
I think the mod August Storm use one battalion for all armour, you change what kind of division by deciding what equipment is allowed
 

14lokk1

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You can phase out light tanks battalion per battalion in division for medium tank battalions, this way, you only lose 60 light tanks (assuming division was already 100% strength which means they were probably no fighting at all, or fighting someone who doesn't fight back properly - otherwise you only send back tanks that would overflow the new limit). And sooner or later new medium tanks will flow in to the divisions.

You also have information when modifying template what effect on current stockpile it will have, so you can see that and make decision before hand whether you wamt to upgrade 1,2,3 etc. Batalions in panzer division to new type, or no at all, because stockpile of mediums is still too low.

After all I don't see the problem with current way it works.

Okay, fine. You can do that, but my question is why should you have to. After all, if you tell your organizers to prepare equipment for a panzer division, and you don't have enough medium tanks, they'd probably substitute light tanks for medium tanks anyway without you ever saying a word. So why is it that in game do you have to?

If that is micro to you, then I suppose you prefer to set up battle plans that are just one big line under a field marshal and when the war starts hit go.

Most of the players here do not see the most basic of interactions with their forces as being micro. I think your definition of that word is very far from the average player's. Your ideas of how things "should" be in this regard are not going to meet with much acceptance. I know I am far from the only one who disagrees with you entirely. If the game system controlled things for you to the degree you seem to desire, it would essentially play itself. I see little reason to want such a thing.

Firstly, there's good and fun micro, then there's unnecessary and cumbersome micro. You should micro spearhead operations, encirclements. You should also micro what ships and tanks do you want built. I hate the notion of controlling every movement of every individual division. You, the player, is essentially playing the role of Hitler, Stalin, Churchill or any other national leader+Millitary HQ, it should be up to your staff to plan usual day to day runnings of your army and the war. Where you come in is when there are special operations (Operation Barbarossa, D Day, Pearl Harbour, etc.), or which direction to take development of technology (to fit the 57mm gun or 76mm gun on the shermans), also you're in charge of appointing leaders for your army etc. However, how they fight their battles, and the war, is entirely up to them. Under this premise, when I say I want a medium tank division made primarily of Panzer IV's, but I don't have enough Panzer IV's, then the Panzer III's will be rolled out (as happens in the game currently since they're both medium tanks), however when those run out, and I have a pile of leopards lying around collecting dust, why aren't they smart enough to push those out? It makes no sense if you think of it in real life outside of 'oh those are different types of equipment in game'. And yes, you're correct, you're not the only one who likes extensive micro. However I believe I'm also not the only person who essentially wanted a version of HOI3 which had better AI (yes. I used the various AI in the OOB so that I usually never needed to fight a single battle by hand).
 

GeorgieBest

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Yeah, alright. I know that there are 'workarounds', but that begs the question: Why on earth will my divisions send all my light tanks home when there are no mediums delivered yet? It seems like this is a flaw in game design…

It isn't a flaw in the game. If you had an infantry division that had exclusively artillery, and you then changed the template to replace all the artillery with anti tank guns, why would the artillery wait around in those unit? As far as the game is concerned, you might have decided to do this because you need that artillery in another division template, and if you had to wait around for it then it would be a major game mechanic flaw.

edit:

Imagine a scenario where you have a division template for one theatre and another template for your other theatre. Say in one of your theatres you suddenly need lots of light tanks, but you have none in reserve. You might decide that your light tanks are needed more in that theatre than in the divisions they are currently in at the other theatre. So you switch templates, and are happy for your other divisions to slowly fill with medium tanks as they are produced, while your divisions that desperately needed the light tanks straight away get them without delay.