Techs for minors (Finland)

[incognitus]

Is there any mod out there that fixes the tech levels for minors? I just started a new campaign with Finland and it's pitiful! They don't know how to build factories... or roads, for that matter.

It would be great if there was a mod out there that fixes this and sets minors' tech levels to where they should be relatively to the likes of the UK or Germany.

In case there isn't one, could somebody please point me to where this information is stored so I can attempt to fix it myself?

Of course I am more than happy to listen to your opinion on what techs Finland should have in 1936.

 

[Kovax]

Sadly, all minors seem to get the same list of generic techs, with one or two individual variations at most. That makes the Netherlands, Sweden, Hungary, and Canada virtually identical in technology at the start with Tibet, Bhutan, Oman, and Haiti. You do get about 50% higher Leadership with the industrialized Western countries, so you can pull slightly ahead by a handful of techs by the time war breaks out.

I vaguely recall (after several years since changing a few things myself) that the starting techs might be included in the countries.txt file, but I'm not at all positive without digging through the files again, and I don't have the game here. My gaming PC is set up on a floor of the house with no phone or internet connection, and I'm not home at the moment.

 

[incognitus]

Sadly, all minors seem to get the same list of generic techs, with one or two individual variations at most. That makes the Netherlands, Sweden, Hungary, and Canada virtually identical in technology at the start with Tibet, Bhutan, Oman, and Haiti. You do get about 50% higher Leadership with the industrialized Western countries, so you can pull slightly ahead by a handful of techs by the time war breaks out.

I vaguely recall (after several years since changing a few things myself) that the starting techs might be included in the countries.txt file, but I'm not at all positive without digging through the files again, and I don't have the game here. My gaming PC is set up on a floor of the house with no phone or internet connection, and I'm not home at the moment.

Okay, I found the file. It's in \history\countries\FIN - Finland.txt

Now, ideally there would be in existence another country with the kind of tech that Finland should have in 1936 so I can just copy it over, but I doubt there is. Is there?

Otherwise... what techs do you think FIN should have? Here's what they start out with:

cavalry_smallarms = 2
cavalry_support = 1
cavalry_guns = 1
cavalry_at = 1
militia_smallarms = 2
militia_support = 1
militia_guns = 1
militia_at = 1
infantry_activation = 1
smallarms_technology = 2
infantry_support = 1
infantry_guns = 1
infantry_at = 1
mountain_infantry = 1
aa_barrell_ammo = 1
aa_carriage_sights = 1
infantry_warfare = 1
mass_assault = 1
assault_concentration = 1
guerilla_warfare = 1
peoples_army = 1
heavycruiser_technology = 1
heavycruiser_armament = 1
heavycruiser_antiaircraft = 1
heavycruiser_engine = 1
heavycruiser_armour = 1
submarine_technology = 1
submarine_antiaircraft = 1
submarine_torpedoes = 1

 

[Mebsuta]

Just start a custom game and research what you want researched.

Besides what do you even need as Finland? Just put as much points as possible on infantry and the whole industrial page. Then research land strategy as you play. Allign to a faction. Savescum to rig the Jul'36 elections into something not democratic so you can enact better IC laws. Take Norway Sweden and maybe Denmark if you feel like it between 37-38. Then just do as your faction needs from 39 and beyond.

Better to go axis. You will get severe penalties for trying to go comintern given that USSR controls finnish cores. And allies just won't work. Germany will swarm you and fair laws won't help.

 

[incognitus]

Custom game won't cut it. Finland doesn't have enough points to get anywhere near to where it should be.

I didn't say Finland needed anything. I just beat the game as Ireland, I know how to overcome those issues. I'm just sick and tired of how all minors get the same crappy techs when Finland should certainly have some more techs then they get in the game. It get's pretty old playing with the same set of techs all the time and basically starting out in the stone age. So I will bring them up to where they should be and see how that game plays out.

If you want to make suggestions on what techs FIN should start out with, please feel free!

Now, I think I will accept your challenge, Sir. Allies it is. Axis would probably be too easy anyways.

 

[incognitus]

So, I've gone through the list, this is what I think would be fair to add:

Infantry Techs:
Arctic Equipment
Armoured Techs:
AT techs
maybe 1918 LARM?
maybe ART?
Escorts:
maybe DD?
maybe CL?
Industry:
Agriculture
Education
Industrial Production
Industrial Efficiency
Electrical/Mechanical Eng
Construction
Advanced Construction (I know this is a late tech, but doesn't Germany have it? And shouldn't everybody be able to build infrastructure?)
Land:
Guerilla +1
maybe some other techs, they have very little, what do you think?
Air:
Fighter Pilot Training
Interceptor Tactics
(to reflect that they used the advanced finger four formation against the Soviets successfully)

Anything you disagree with or would like to add?

 

[Kovax]

I'd probably rule out the LARM and CL techs. Finland was probably capable of building them, but hadn't invested the time and effort into it, from what little I know of them. Sweden, on the other hand, did a lot of Germany's armor design work before the war, so it was actually close to on par with Germany in 1934-'35 in that field until some of the engineers returned to Germany and further design work took different courses. Sweden also designed the AA guns that half of the Allies built under license and used for most of the war, yet Sweden gets no credit for them and can't build them. I don't know if Finland built its own artillery and AT weapons, or whether it purchased practically everything, as did several other smaller industrialized countries.

Very few countries designed their own light cruisers (or larger); most of them either purchased ships from the major powers or had them constructed specifically for them. I think I'd give them the basic DD tech and stop there, and even that's probably being generous.

Unfortunately, it takes 3 levels of Industrial Production and Industrial Efficiency to unlock Advanced Construction before you can build roads and rails, which seems VERY wrong. The game really should tie the maximum level that you can construct to the level of Advanced Construction, which in turn should require the other techs to increase it. That would allow minors to build up infrastructure to some intermediate level, but building to higher levels would take further research. Unfortunately, it's not set up that way.

 

[incognitus]

I'd probably rule out the LARM and CL techs. Finland was probably capable of building them, but hadn't invested the time and effort into it, from what little I know of them.

I tend to agree with you there. They did co-design the two Coastal Defense Ships that the game treats as Heavy Cruisers, so I figured they must have some savvy. They had (don't know if they built them) several gunboats, but I'm aware that's not quite big enough to be represented in-game. I just think it's stupid to give them 2 CAs when the way the game works 2 lone capital ships are worthless.

I don't know if Finland built its own artillery and AT weapons, or whether it purchased practically everything, as did several other smaller industrialized countries.

Don't know, if they did. But then again IRL you can actually upgrade and modernize weapon systems you bought or built in licence, not just those you invented from scratch by yourself...

Very few countries designed their own light cruisers (or larger); most of them either purchased ships from the major powers or had them constructed specifically for them. I think I'd give them the basic DD tech and stop there, and even that's probably being generous.

My suggestion meant to be either CL or DD. I feel more comfortable with giving them DDs, combining DDs and CAs is stupid, so I guess that's what I'll do to make up for giving them a tech they technically didn't have.

Unfortunately, it takes 3 levels of Industrial Production and Industrial Efficiency to unlock Advanced Construction before you can build roads and rails, which seems VERY wrong. The game really should tie the maximum level that you can construct to the level of Advanced Construction, which in turn should require the other techs to increase it. That would allow minors to build up infrastructure to some intermediate level, but building to higher levels would take further research. Unfortunately, it's not set up that way.

Not sure how the system works in this regard. I will try it tonight, maybe a nation can start with a tech that it couldn't research yet, because prerequisites are not fulfilled. If not, then I will just remove those prerequisites.

Everything else you think is reasonable enough?

 

[Kovax]

I would tend to question the Agriculture tech, not that Finland didn't know how to grow food, but because the climate was so ill-suited for massive food growing. Basically, I might hand them the 1918 levels of most of those techs you mentioned, but the 1936 techs are meant to be "cutting edge" at the start of the game. Finland was industrialized to a degree, and had a modern educational system, but it wasn't on the forefront of technology either. Even Germany was considered "behind" on some of its industrial and agricultural practices, not that the game reflects it.

Note that I added several starting techs for Hungary at one point, but later reverted back to the vanilla game values for balance:
Radios - Hungary's R34 radio was already in military service by the start of 1936, but it takes until 1937 before you can even unlock the prerequisites to research them in-game. I give them the underlying electro-mechanical and radio technology techs to unlock Radios, but don't actually give them radios, so it takes one research slot to get them.

Motorized Infantry - Hungary's motor vehicle production capabilities were limited, but it had already started motorizing its cavalry and creating "fast" divisions with partial motorization by 1936. They did purchase some Italian trucks, which were more durable than their own, but used some of their own as well. I gave them the prerequisite cavalry techs to unlock the MOT tech, but didn't actually give them the MOT tech itself.

I also gave them the tech to unlock DDs, mainly for the ability to build or upgrade a port. They were part of Austria-Hungary, with something like the 5th most powerful navy in the world going into WWI, but both Austria and Hungary were denied even a single port in the surrender terms. There would have been no naval development since WWI, but they should still have the knowledge, industrial capabilities, and/or plans for WWI level ships.

That was it. A handful of techs, mostly Cavalry techs which are only useful for unlocking MOT. Finland wasn't light years ahead of that, so I'd be very sparing on what you give them, and err on the side of caution rather than give them everything that they were even remotely capable of doing.

 

[Mebsuta]

I would tend to question the Agriculture tech, not that Finland didn't know how to grow food, but because the climate was so ill-suited for massive food growing. Basically, I might hand them the 1918 levels of most of those techs you mentioned, but the 1936 techs are meant to be "cutting edge" at the start of the game. Finland was industrialized to a degree, and had a modern educational system, but it wasn't on the forefront of technology either. Even Germany was considered "behind" on some of its industrial and agricultural practices, not that the game reflects it.

Don't.

Finland's manpower is a real drag. Put agriculture on level 4 (to the point when the next research is 1938).

 

[incognitus]

Fair enough! Thank you.

I'm not soo worried about the point you made earlier about limiting the maximum infrastructure a country can build, because the underdeveloped countries won't get very far regardless anyways. It takes a long time to build infrastructure, so I doub't Finland is going to get terribly far by the time it stops mattering (1943ish) anyways. I mean, a province with infrastructure 2 or so, will only get to what... 6-7 by then?