Technology: what is the ideal system for this time period?

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sersorr

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just think of Archimedes in the siege of Syracuse, if you combine Einstein/Tesla/Oppenheimer for good value,
you get the idea of Archimedes, he was many hundred years ahead of the other "city-states" tyrannic-states

You should be looking at Alexandria, Syracuse, and Rhodes. Those were the main technological centers at that time. Irrigation was greatly improved with the invention of Archimedes' Screw. That alone adds a lot to food production.

Valid points. Another "Archimedes" example is Pytheas of Massalia who explored the british isles among other things.

He made a voyage of exploration to northwestern Europe in about 325 BC, but his description of it, widely known in Antiquity, has not survived.

In this voyage he circumnavigated and visited a considerable part of Great Britain. He is the first person on record to describe the Midnight Sun. The theoretical existence of a Frigid Zone, and temperate zones where the nights are very short in summer and the sun does not set at the summer solstice, was already known. Similarly, reports of a country of perpetual snow and darkness (the country of the Hyperboreans) had reached the Mediterranean some centuries before. Pytheas is the first known scientific visitor and reporter of the Arctic, polar ice, and the Germanic tribes. He introduced the idea of distant Thule to the geographic imagination, and his account of the tides is the earliest known to suggest the moon as their cause. Pytheas may have also reached Iceland

So Massalia for example could start the game with a "big" map knowledge of North Europe.

Another important aspect was the Mouseion of Alexandria( the library of Alexandria was part of it)

The Ancient Library of Alexandria.
The Musaeum or Mouseion at Alexandria (Ancient Greek: Μουσεῖον τῆς Ἀλεξανδρείας), which included the famous Library of Alexandria,[1] was an institution founded by Ptolemy I Soter or, perhaps more likely, by his son Ptolemy II Philadelphus. This original Musaeum ("Institution of the Muses") was the home of music or poetry, a philosophical school and library such as Plato's Academy, also a storehouse of texts. It did not have a collection of works of art, rather it was an institution that brought together some of the best scholars of the Hellenistic world, analogous to a modern university. This original Musaeum was the source for the modern usage of the word museum.

This was a proto university that spammed lots of new techs and wise man. In fact even Archimides went there as a young man to study. It was also a sign of excellence for the Ptolemies. So what if other Diadochi hegemons built their own also?
 

DreadLindwyrm

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Weren't the Romans renowned for their infrastructure? The roads and the aqueducts and the invention of concrete, etc. It certainly gave them an edge.
Not just concrete, but concrete that sets under water - something we've just got back to, and we still don't know if it's the same method.
 

Undead Martyr

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From a historical perspective, "technology" should be almost irrelevant. What should matter instead is good management of population, infrastructure and resources.

That is technology, though; the Legions' organization and tactics (which emerged from Rome's experiences in the Samnite Wars) were what allowed them to curbstomp the Greeks, just as Roman engineering is what allowed them to knit the Empire together.
 

icedt729

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Weren't the Romans renowned for their infrastructure? The roads and the aqueducts and the invention of concrete, etc. It certainly gave them an edge.
Yes, but infrastructure should be built as an investment in money, time and labor that pays off in benefits for the local area- so you should build roads, ports, aqueducts, etc as part of the long-term development of specific regions. You shouldn't just research "aqueducts" and then instantly get a pan-empire bonus.
 

Selzro

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Yes, but infrastructure should be built as an investment in money, time and labor that pays off in benefits for the local area- so you should build roads, ports, aqueducts, etc as part of the long-term development of specific regions. You shouldn't just research "aqueducts" and then instantly get a pan-empire bonus.
That's not how it worked in EU: Rome. When you researched aqueducts you still had to construct them in every province to get their benefits, so you needed that investment in time and money - but to make the investment you first need to know what you're doing. There's a reason all previous attempts to create a canal linking the Red Sea to the Nile had failed, but the one made by the Ptolemies succeeded. It wasn't because they could command more labour than previous pharaos but because they had advanced their engineering knowledge enough to invent canal locks. They still needed a large investment of labour to make it happen, but labour by itself does not overcome problems that need new engineering, which in turn may need new science.
 

Rubidium

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I think the traditional Paradox approach towards technologies would be bad for this game. Instead, a random discovery based system where you could influence discoveries via circumstantial modifiers would be better.
Victoria II has something like this. There is a traditional tech tree (several different categories of techs, each of which has several trees that you proceed down in whichever order, linearly). The techs themselves have certain bonuses that they give right away, but each tech also unlocks the potential for various "inventions," which are randomly discovered and have various weights associated with them (so, for example, "Trench Systems" has a 4% chance monthly to be discovered once you research the "Deep Defense System" tech, but it gets an extra 2% monthly chance to spawn if you have also discovered "Breech-Loading Rifles). The inventions can have positive or negative effects, or some combination thereof, which also serves to shift the style of warfare somewhat (for instance, inventions that boost infantry much more than cavalry can help render cavalry much less useful by the end of the game).

But really, the biggest "technological" difference in the Roman period is just the difference in infrastructure and organization between "civilized" nations and "barbarians," and the tendency as time went on for barbarians to adopt "civilized" lifestyles (both as conquered Roman subjects being assimilated into the state, but also as groups along the borders adopting e.g. Roman agricultural practices to increase their yield and thus their strength vis a vis more remote tribes). That aspect should be modeled somehow.
 

MrCDexterWard

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From what I remember, some of the reddit posts from guys that were able to interview and have more of a detailed discussion with the devs said that it seems like there is going to be an inventions system and then traditions. The inventions system was mentioned to be somewhat like Stellaris tech in that it will be randomized but outside of that there isn't anything else to say.
 

Traum77

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Resuscitating this one based on what Johan had to say in the preview presentation at PDXCon. Basically Citizen pops will feed research rates - which is a bit disappointing. It might wind up being just another mana pool we get autofilled. Feels a bit like the CK2 system.

Actually of all the research systems I think might work best, the one in Total War: Thrones of Britannia may be best - you have to actually do things on the map in order to be able to develop technologies. So if you use a bunch of heavy infantry, you can research heavy infantry tech. You've got experience building roads? You get better road building tech. I think that'd work well for this era.

I think what we'll wind up getting is something close to original EU:Rome though, which, while fine, was never really well explained through the interface. You just assigned high finesse characters to the different fields and hoped for the best. I'd hope for a bit more interactivity at the very least.
 

Denkt

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The problem with a do technology system is that it may lead to the strong getting stronger. Like recruit 50 Heavy infantry is much easier for a strong nation and if you equalise it, the values may get impossible or pointless for a large civilization.

It may also lead to specialization, like build Heavy infantry to get better Heavy infantry which may unbalance the game in focus on a few units.
 

SwordOfCentury

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The problem with a do technology system is that it may lead to the strong getting stronger. Like recruit 50 Heavy infantry is much easier for a strong nation and if you equalise it, the values may get impossible or pointless for a large civilization.

It may also lead to specialization, like build Heavy infantry to get better Heavy infantry which may unbalance the game in focus on a few units.
Not necessarily!
The Sarmatians and the Dacians could give the (and they gave) Romans hell.
They had deep insight in the specialized Roman steel-inventing/technology, but used it at their advantage.
So the invention is two-fold,,, the states (that are not vasall/annexed) can use it AGAINST YOU!...
which is to remembered.
Not many know that the Sarmatians gave birth to the English Knights (aka the Medieval Knight era)...
 

Rubidium

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Not many know that the Sarmatians gave birth to the English Knights (aka the Medieval Knight era)...
Just wanted to note that this is pretty clearly a myth; English knights descended from Frankish (Norman) knights (indeed, the Anglo-Saxons were notoriously infantry-focused, as seen e.g. at Hastings), who in turn were an outgrowth of Carolingian developments (even Merovingian armies were mostly infantry), due more to changing technology.

But to get back to the original point, any "gain experience by doing" approach is going to be much easier for large blobs, which can afford to "do" more readily (unlike a weak OPM, which will have difficulty supporting a large army, and which can't afford significant losses from a long-drawn out conflict). Not to mention potentially incentivizing particularly cheesy strategies (declare war on a puny, isolated country, and either never peace out or rotate wars between several weak OPMs, depending on how war exhaustion works).

It's a game mechanic issue, not a history issue (especially since real technological development is far too complicated a process to be truly accurately represented in a game anyway).
 

SwordOfCentury

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Just wanted to note that this is pretty clearly a myth; English knights descended from Frankish (Norman) knights (indeed, the Anglo-Saxons were notoriously infantry-focused, as seen e.g. at Hastings), who in turn were an outgrowth of Carolingian developments (even Merovingian armies were mostly infantry), due more to changing technology.

But to get back to the original point, any "gain experience by doing" approach is going to be much easier for large blobs, which can afford to "do" more readily (unlike a weak OPM, which will have difficulty supporting a large army, and which can't afford significant losses from a long-drawn out conflict). Not to mention potentially incentivizing particularly cheesy strategies (declare war on a puny, isolated country, and either never peace out or rotate wars between several weak OPMs, depending on how war exhaustion works).

It's a game mechanic issue, not a history issue (especially since real technological development is far too complicated a process to be truly accurately represented in a game anyway).
According to my books and sources the first stationed "knights appeared in Britain" or the annexed/provincial parts anyaway.

184 A.D
Lucius Artorius Castus, commander of a detachment of Sarmatian conscripts stationed in Britain, led his troops to Gaul to quell a rebellion. This is the first appearance of the name, Artorius, in history and some believe that this Roman military man is the original, or basis, for the Arthurian legend. The theory says that Castus’ exploits in Gaul, at the head of a contingent of mounted troops, are the basis for later, similar traditions about "King Arthur," and, further, that the name "Artorius" became a title, or honorific, which was ascribed to a famous warrior in the fifth century.

Source: http://www.webritish.co.uk/timeline.asp

Ok you asked for more then you have it....
https://books.google.se/books?id=NPkH-7BCB6AC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=sarmatians+5000&source=bl&ots=Mk_ynCCRHJ&sig=smO7MZaD7GkdI93w4d-5NzHEVQ0&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGpKCu3qHbAhULESwKHYqbBbgQ6AEILjAA#v=onepage&q=sarmatians 5000&f=false

The Sarmatians may well have benn the precursors of
a much later phenomenon- The European Knight.
Perhaps chivalry itself (imo not a myth)
Its a fact that the emperor moved thoose
5000 "knights to Britain"

-Moving on though, it clearly states:
That knightly culture of war and honour, also
began in Caucasus, where gallantry is still part of the
highlander identity.

Well are you entertained or you want even more,
-Well then hold on to your hats.

In my third source it says on the following (page 83)
Firstly, the despatch, to Britain by Marcus Aurelius of 5500 Sarmatians in 175.
Source: The Roman Imperial Army
Graham Webster 1998

In my opinion (and my sources) they clearly indicated the start for
the medieval knight/chivalry system, although by the Roman
age they was labelled as heavy horse auxillia.

Many more sources then?
http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm
http://www.marres.education/sarmatians.htm (but here it says they ware included in the Legion, which i highly doubt,
he must have meant that they were included as Auxillia)...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.celtic/7YayymcTwvs

Malcor also suggests that Artorius's standard was a large red dragon pennant (auxiliary forces did not use the usual Roman eagle standards), which is proposed as the origin of the Welsh epithet Pendragon 'Dragon Chief/Head' (alternately, 'Leader of Warriors', in a more figurative sense) in Arthurian literature. According to both Malone, and Littleton & Malcor,[21][29]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_King_Arthur



Sarmatian presence in the British Isles
http://www.magtudin.org/Arthur part 1.htm

Where are your sources?
 

DreadLindwyrm

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The problem with those sources is that when Britain was taken by the Saxons, the concept of anything resembling a heavy cavalryman was more or less lost in these islands, certainly as an elite soldier. Instead the "elite warrior to the king" role was filled by the housecarl, a heavy infantryman. Serious cavalry didn't come back to Britain until the Normans.

They may have been the inspiration for knights, but not directly in Britain.
 

SwordOfCentury

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The problem with those sources is that when Britain was taken by the Saxons, the concept of anything resembling a heavy cavalryman was more or less lost in these islands, certainly as an elite soldier. Instead the "elite warrior to the king" role was filled by the housecarl, a heavy infantryman. Serious cavalry didn't come back to Britain until the Normans.

They may have been the inspiration for knights, but not directly in Britain.
Read my thread and read the books,

for good value i will write it again, (there must be something in the water that blocks the frontal-lobe in this forum).

After making peace with the Sarmatians lazyges, in ad 175 Marcus Arurelius drafted 5500 of their cavlry to Britain.
-Yes it says Britan, not Norway or France or even Sweden,Britain.

These Sarmatins units formed a very important arm in the late Army.
When the heavy cavalry became more fully appreciated, it could almost be saidthat here was to be found the precursor
of the medieval knight with his mail and hauberk" End quote...
Page 155
Imperial Army by Graham Webster
1998

In my other books (Roman Frontiers) it says
the the Roman villas frequently was inhabitated with Auxillia (not necessarily horse auxilla)
But the main point is that chivarly was not uprooted in Britain, in my opinion (and Grahams)
and many more scholars there is a clearly indication for not only the start of chivalry
but also building the first medieval castles (by expanding the auxillia roman villas by fortifying it)
 

SwordOfCentury

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All im saying is that all my sources and suggestion pointing to
a prototype knight, IT also could be said that the prototype for this
was first to be found in Britain.
-And in my opinion even the castles (with expanded/upgraded villas into castles), also in Britain perhaps?
Coincidence?

All that has played the ROA modd know what im talking about.
Colonization (upgraded Legionary forts into Colonies)...

Just about the same thing but villas.
But if the villas were full of Sarmatian/Lazyges Heavy Horse Auxillia?
-Well i think you get my picture...
 

NoOneBCE

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I like the idea of a tech System more resembling ck2s where you get lots of advancements in various Areas that can be very uneavenly spread.
I'd love if tech was similar to ck2 but also possibly regressive, if some disaster whipes out most of your citizens you slowly regress until that pop has stabalized. Or if your lands get sacked they technologically Regress (burned libraries and so on).
Furthermore a combined System (like ck2) with profincial and gouvernmental tech could simulate limits to back water provinces.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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Read my thread and read the books,

for good value i will write it again, (there must be something in the water that blocks the frontal-lobe in this forum).

After making peace with the Sarmatians lazyges, in ad 175 Marcus Arurelius drafted 5500 of their cavlry to Britain.
-Yes it says Britan, not Norway or France or even Sweden,Britain.

These Sarmatins units formed a very important arm in the late Army.
When the heavy cavalry became more fully appreciated, it could almost be saidthat here was to be found the precursor
of the medieval knight with his mail and hauberk" End quote...
Page 155
Imperial Army by Graham Webster
1998

In my other books (Roman Frontiers) it says
the the Roman villas frequently was inhabitated with Auxillia (not necessarily horse auxilla)
But the main point is that chivarly was not uprooted in Britain, in my opinion (and Grahams)
and many more scholars there is a clearly indication for not only the start of chivalry
but also building the first medieval castles (by expanding the auxillia roman villas by fortifying it)


I'll try to be clearer then.

The tradition of the mounted warrior was essentially lost in Britain, either when the Romans left, or shortly afterwards during the Saxon invasions.

The concept of the "knight" was then reintroduced later on in the Norman period.

Chivalry as a concept is medieval love poetry stuff. Early knights weren't the flower of chivalry.


British castles didn't really tend to be ex-villas (mostly rich homes and farms), but rather the descendents of either Roman castra (military camps), or the pre-Roman Celtic hill fort.

Had the Romans not withdrawn from Britain, then I could well see the Sarmatian cavalry leading directly to something resembling the knight, but they did, and Britain lost out on that tradition. Perhaps it was lack of suitable horses once the legions withdrew with their auxillia. Perhaps they lost anyone who could train effective cavalry. Perhaps the last of the elite cavalry were killed and didn't have sufficient numbers to be effective any more and the tactic was lost. Perhaps in the struggle to adapt after the Romans left and the Saxons invaded no one was left rich enough amongst the Romanised Britons to be able to afford to keep cavalry.

I'm not disputing the Sarmatian cavalry existed or were in Britain. I'm not even disputing they were the ancestor to the knight. What I'm saying is that the tradition was lost at some point between the Romans leaving, and the Norman invasion. The most likely points are the actual withdrawal of Rome, or the waves of Saxon (and Angle, and Jutish, and assorted Norse) invasions.
 

SwordOfCentury

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I'll try to be clearer then.

The tradition of the mounted warrior was essentially lost in Britain, either when the Romans left, or shortly afterwards during the Saxon invasions.

The concept of the "knight" was then reintroduced later on in the Norman period.

Chivalry as a concept is medieval love poetry stuff. Early knights weren't the flower of chivalry.


British castles didn't really tend to be ex-villas (mostly rich homes and farms), but rather the descendents of either Roman castra (military camps), or the pre-Roman Celtic hill fort.

Had the Romans not withdrawn from Britain, then I could well see the Sarmatian cavalry leading directly to something resembling the knight, but they did, and Britain lost out on that tradition. Perhaps it was lack of suitable horses once the legions withdrew with their auxillia. Perhaps they lost anyone who could train effective cavalry. Perhaps the last of the elite cavalry were killed and didn't have sufficient numbers to be effective any more and the tactic was lost. Perhaps in the struggle to adapt after the Romans left and the Saxons invaded no one was left rich enough amongst the Romanised Britons to be able to afford to keep cavalry.

I'm not disputing the Sarmatian cavalry existed or were in Britain. I'm not even disputing they were the ancestor to the knight. What I'm saying is that the tradition was lost at some point between the Romans leaving, and the Norman invasion. The most likely points are the actual withdrawal of Rome, or the waves of Saxon (and Angle, and Jutish, and assorted Norse) invasions.
We are talking about the technological progress regarding the gameplay of Imperator Rome right?

Who owned the villas in first place?...
 

DreadLindwyrm

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We are talking about the technological progress regarding the gameplay of Imperator Rome right?

Who owned the villas in first place?...
Rich landowners, not the military protectorate.

The legions and auxillia would be garrisoned at a fortified city or purpose built military installation, not in the equivalent of a millionaire's country retreat.

You introduced quite a swerve away from the discussion of tech progress in gameplay when you suggested the Sarmatian was the direct ancestor of English knights. The medieval knight is something developed amongst the Franks and their successors, and adapted into the medieval knight over time. Britain had lost the tradition, hence why Stamford Bridge and Hastings had the Anglo-Saxon forces almost entirely formed of infantry - even the elite warriors of the king - whereas the Normans who had inherited the Frankish approach had significant cavalry. After that we get the knight begin to become important in England.
 

SwordOfCentury

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Rich landowners, not the military protectorate.

The legions and auxillia would be garrisoned at a fortified city or purpose built military installation, not in the equivalent of a millionaire's country retreat.

You introduced quite a swerve away from the discussion of tech progress in gameplay when you suggested the Sarmatian was the direct ancestor of English knights. The medieval knight is something developed amongst the Franks and their successors, and adapted into the medieval knight over time. Britain had lost the tradition, hence why Stamford Bridge and Hastings had the Anglo-Saxon forces almost entirely formed of infantry - even the elite warriors of the king - whereas the Normans who had inherited the Frankish approach had significant cavalry. After that we get the knight begin to become important in England.
I was merely stating my proposition, not a statement as such!
Besides it was not actually my qoute (read the thread again!)

Some large villas acquired fortifcations or where associated with a burgus fortlet (such as those at Froitzheim and Rheinbach-Flerz-burgus fortlets
in the Rhinelands.

Page: 270
Frontiers of the Roman Empire (a social and economic study).
C.R Wittaker


Same theme with the Sarmatians (same tech-scheme)
This are only propositions,again, not statements,

BUT they have (in my opinion) huge historical impact
and would perhaps add that flavour that made ROA
so special, i cant see why the swerve has got to do with it.
On the contrary i would se this discussion (or proclamation)
As adding more flavour, as i KNOW
that Paradox games can (and will be unbarinlgy boring, bland
and dry as dead sea sand on a sunday evening).


Again some villa/villas were equipped or acguired fortifications,
henceforte my theory that they (perhaps) was evolving into burgus/fortlets etc...
I suggest you answer C.R Wittaker on this one...=)

Im not arguing about the Vandals, that burned Rome...
Villa/Expanded Villa/Burgus/Fortlet/Small Castle
I think you understand where im getting at,
to make the game MORE FUN, just like Johan stated in the interviews...