Technology: what is the ideal system for this time period?

[cardinal7]

The technology development in the Classic period was not as far as those in the subsequent centuries (especially after XVI c.) but was far from completely not present.
Here below some of the invention or improvement on existing techs during the roman empire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_technology#Technologies_developed_or_invented_by_the_Romans

Some people totally underestimate the importance of technological advances (as well as spreading and using them) in antiquity because they are not the GROUNDBREAKING, changing the world in a decade kind of advancements of the later periods(like printing press or industrillization).
But the antiquity technological / scientific advancements are just as important, they just need to act for a longer period of time to be impactful. Your link hopefully shows some of this....to name a few hydraulic mining, military surgery and even the codex. There is also the issue of (besides new technological advancements in the time frame) how will tribes or other nations use the inventions / science that were made previous to the game time but they are not embraced and spread throughout the world (like the greek classical era advancements) which the romans totally embraced and developed in almost all aspects.

Edit: technology is important, it needs a good system. What that might be gameplaywise is beyond me, but suggesting that it ain't that important because ancient civs didn't do much is wrong.

 

[Cat Crusade]

The problem is technological advance in preindustrial societies doesn't work like it does in our own so making an accurate representation is close to impossible. Partially because we don't even yet have a grasp what motivated technological advancement prior to the rise of science and concept of innovation. There existed weird early technologies, I recall reading about the pre-classical greeks having briefly invented writing but it never caught on and was only used in administration before fading into obscurity and arising again. Developement of technolgies in this time period is a bit of a puzzle still on how exactly it worked.

To make an educated guess, it probably had to do with
a) with level of urbanization which allowed the support of a class of people who could then dedicate time to think of improvements
b) some kind of tradition for philosophy or reasoning and freedom of thought to counter the conservativism of these societies
c) having encountered similiar technological advancements often greatly sped up adaptation into own society
d) having a use for a technology or the imagination to apply it, technology that caught on seemed to respond to real pressing needs, technology the society couldn't use yet due to lack of application or imagination would likely be discarded.

So to sum up an accurate system representing this process is probably inapplicable in a videogame context. And it wouldn't be fun to have technology as a sideffect of factors the player can have very little input in. So a traditional 'pick tech and wait' system would probably be servicable with some modification to account for the time period.



TLDR version:

Tech back then was random and probably a sideffect of factors outside the control of a society. Representing this accurately would probably not be a lot of fun in a game.

 

[Denkt]

Im not sure technology was all that random during the time, consider how the roman legion was constantly adopting to new challenges. Roman navy was developed to defeat Carthage which also Point towards ability to develop technology based on needs.

 

[Cat Crusade]

Im not sure technology was all that random during the time, consider how the roman legion was constantly adopting to new challenges. Roman navy was developed to defeat Carthage which also Point towards ability to develop technology based on needs.

Please look at the letter c) and d) of my post, already accounted there

 

[Pyrrus]

I think a reform/adaptation system would be better than an outright technologie system.

Ex: The more you fight against barbarians the more your army reforms progress.

Like that every countries would feel different because they would have different reforms in accordance with their neighbours and environnement.

 

[Cat Crusade]

Maybe everyone starts with some tech and dealing, trading and waring with those societies would advance your own technologies connected to them? Say I play a tribe that sucks at making heavy infantry and then getting into trading relations or war with a hellenistic faction would advance hellenistic style warfare tech?

 

[Pyrrus]

Maybe everyone starts with some tech and dealing, trading and waring with those societies would advance your own technologies connected to them? Say I play a tribe that sucks at making heavy infantry and then getting into trading relations or war with a hellenistic faction would advance hellenistic style warfare tech?

Exactly. That would be the way to go with the "technologie" in this game.

 

[SwordOfCentury]

Many misses the correlation between trade/technology.
For example when Rome invaded Carthago at (was it 142BC?) they found the city
full with plumbing and bathing/sewage systems.
All the romans had to do was do add puzzola and "hey presto" concrete was invented!...
Simplfied offcourse but the main point is clearly laid out...
IN EU:Rome 1 it worked halfassed, you had to boost the invention tech to made
it correlate with the timeframe, ex Corvus/Military Reforms etc...

 

[Selzro]

You shouldn't be looking at Rome for technological advancement during that time period. You should be looking at Alexandria, Syracuse, and Rhodes. Those were the main technological centers at that time. Irrigation was greatly improved with the invention of Archimedes' Screw. That alone adds a lot to food production. Hydraulics in general was an area of great advancement at that time. Improvements in engineering enabled the construction of ever greater ships, both for commerce and warfare. Reportedly, the Romans only figured out how to build their quinquiremes after they got their hands on a polyreme that had been left behind by Pyrrhus, and they were able to reverse engineer it in part. Various types of optical telegraphs were invented, together with some early cryptography. Seige engines of various types were invented and refined. According to Plutarch, when the Romans besieged Syracuse there were no soldiers needed at the walls - only Archimedes' engineers, operating his many, many catapults of various sizes and ranges. This was an extreme example, but not terribly so. One could not simply attack a sufficiently advanced city without being able to counter its defences with artillery of one's own. Early watermills appear at the time of Mithridates VI. Instruments to measure time and the positions of stars, important for distant navigation, were constantly being improved upon. Compound pulleys came into their own, with impressive results. These are all advances that improve food, trade, productivity, and warfare.

That said, and getting back to the original point of the thread, I'm sure I've read mention that the tech system will be different from that of previous Paradox games. We'll just have to wait and see what they're implementing.

 

[vanin]

Is technology even necessary in this game? In Europa Universalis and Stellaris there are very good reasons to have fleshed out tech trees, as in HoI, as throughout the period so many dramatic shifts occured. But in CK2 for example I tend to forget about technology, only occasionally clicking on stuff when the pop-up appears. It feels so arbitrary, as if it was included just because strategy games must have a tech tree. I know it has clear effects, like improving units and deciding which buildings I can construct, but it does not feel integral or necessary.

If Imperator skips tech I won't miss it, though we know that it will be in. Will it be interesting as in, say, Stellaris, or will it be forgettable and not really worth your time as in CK2? I hoped for a system akin to Institutions in EU4, where different parts of the world knows different things at the game start (writing in the Med and India, cataphracts on the steppe, etc) and having a few certain inventions kicking in later on if applicable during the time period. Over time these would spread or be invented separately of one another throughout the time.

It could spread through war (learning to use different weapons or styles and tactics through fighting an enemy using said stuff), trade would spread political ideas and science, and so on.

 

[Tim O]

I think a lot of the most important tech of this time is infrastructure based.

Roads, bridges and ports to connect the empire. Armies will move quickly and trade will increase dramatically.

Aqueducts, Sewers, Public Baths, can all increase the habitability of cities and lead to increase in population.

The Forum, the Colosseum, the Circus Maximus, the theaters... they all enhance trade, entertainment and culture.

 

[alvaro]

Probably the key point here would be the adoption rate of new techs; faster nowadays, slower in past. In this sense tech research could be influenced by its usage, I mean. the benefits of the "concrete" tech could materialize as you build more stuff with concrete. or the improvement of new olive cultivation system may depend on how many upgraded olive fields you have upgraded, and posibly the upgrade could become cheaper the more upgraded fields you have.
dunno if that sounds like a reasonable idea

 

[SwordOfCentury]

Is technology even necessary in this game? In Europa Universalis and Stellaris there are very good reasons to have fleshed out tech trees, as in HoI, as throughout the period so many dramatic shifts occured. But in CK2 for example I tend to forget about technology, only occasionally clicking on stuff when the pop-up appears. It feels so arbitrary, as if it was included just because strategy games must have a tech tree. I know it has clear effects, like improving units and deciding which buildings I can construct, but it does not feel integral or necessary.

If Imperator skips tech I won't miss it, though we know that it will be in. Will it be interesting as in, say, Stellaris, or will it be forgettable and not really worth your time as in CK2? I hoped for a system akin to Institutions in EU4, where different parts of the world knows different things at the game start (writing in the Med and India, cataphracts on the steppe, etc) and having a few certain inventions kicking in later on if applicable during the time period. Over time these would spread or be invented separately of one another throughout the time.

It could spread through war (learning to use different weapons or styles and tactics through fighting an enemy using said stuff), trade would spread political ideas and science, and so on.

I think the mod ROA made by Wiz made it simple and fun, (which i like)
you can actually choose (scripted event) which technology you could choose.
Example:
Maniple/Phalanx
Big ships/Small ships
Open conscript/only suitable for equites etc...etc...

i had a blast of time 200+ hours with ROA.

 

[Denkt]

Is technology even necessary in this game? In Europa Universalis and Stellaris there are very good reasons to have fleshed out tech trees, as in HoI, as throughout the period so many dramatic shifts occured. But in CK2 for example I tend to forget about technology, only occasionally clicking on stuff when the pop-up appears. It feels so arbitrary, as if it was included just because strategy games must have a tech tree. I know it has clear effects, like improving units and deciding which buildings I can construct, but it does not feel integral or necessary.

If Imperator skips tech I won't miss it, though we know that it will be in. Will it be interesting as in, say, Stellaris, or will it be forgettable and not really worth your time as in CK2? I hoped for a system akin to Institutions in EU4, where different parts of the world knows different things at the game start (writing in the Med and India, cataphracts on the steppe, etc) and having a few certain inventions kicking in later on if applicable during the time period. Over time these would spread or be invented separately of one another throughout the time.

It could spread through war (learning to use different weapons or styles and tactics through fighting an enemy using said stuff), trade would spread political ideas and science, and so on.

EU: Rome you have Citizens who generate research (from what I have Heard that is going to be what they do in Imperiator as well but they will also produce Commerce). How many research Points you get also depend on stuff such as a province civilization value and the skill of the magristrate (basically representing how able the magristrate is able to put new ideas to use). So in EU: Rome technology is rather automatic and the player influence is mainly to try to get more Citizens. The technology system also use innovations (like Victoria 2) which have much more powerful effects than the Tech levels themself, at some Point you have to choose between two branches of innovations so you can not get all innovations.

If you go all out on conquest and ignore Citizen conversion your technology will stagnate as the cost of a technology is based on the total population in your empire.

you can actually choose (scripted event) which technology you could choose.
Example:
Maniple/Phalanx
Big ships/Small ships
Open conscript/only suitable for equites etc...etc...

That is the case for unmodded EU: Rome.​

 

[SwordOfCentury]

EU: Rome you have Citizens who generate research (from what I have Heard that is going to be what they do in Imperiator as well but they will also produce Commerce). How many research Points you get also depend on stuff such as a province civilization value and the skill of the magristrate (basically representing how able the magristrate is able to put new ideas to use). So in EU: Rome technology is rather automatic and the player influence is mainly to try to get more Citizens. The technology system also use innovations (like Victoria 2) which have much more powerful effects than the Tech levels themself, at some Point you have to choose between two branches of innovations so you can not get all innovations.

If you go all out on conquest and ignore Citizen conversion your technology will stagnate as the cost of a technology is based on the total population in your empire.

That is the case for unmodded EU: Rome.​

In my opinion Wiz did a great job by better implementation in ROA.
Although you are technically correct, but the
game is not only by technically correct, it is mainly about
how fun it is, and about gameplay.
Vanilla didnt offer me null in that regard.

 

[Searry]

I think the traditional Paradox approach towards technologies would be bad for this game. Instead, a random discovery based system where you could influence discoveries via circumstantial modifiers would be better.

 

[Denkt]

I think the traditional Paradox approach towards technologies would be bad for this game. Instead, a random discovery based system where you could influence discoveries via circumstantial modifiers would be better.

It is actually not that far from how it works in EU: Rome. You have base levels of technology and you also have innovations.

 

[vanin]

EU: Rome you have Citizens who generate research (from what I have Heard that is going to be what they do in Imperiator as well but they will also produce Commerce). How many research Points you get also depend on stuff such as a province civilization value and the skill of the magristrate (basically representing how able the magristrate is able to put new ideas to use). So in EU: Rome technology is rather automatic and the player influence is mainly to try to get more Citizens. The technology system also use innovations (like Victoria 2) which have much more powerful effects than the Tech levels themself, at some Point you have to choose between two branches of innovations so you can not get all innovations.

If you go all out on conquest and ignore Citizen conversion your technology will stagnate as the cost of a technology is based on the total population in your empire.

I probably have several hundred hours in EUR but it is years and years ago, so I don't remember the process in detail My point still stands though, I think technology should be done differently than in previous games. We always end up with some tech called "bigger walls" or "husbandry" or whatever despite that by this point in time there are already big walls and armored cavalry.

 

[SwordOfCentury]

I probably have several hundred hours in EUR but it is years and years ago, so I don't remember the process in detail My point still stands though, I think technology should be done differently than in previous games. We always end up with some tech called "bigger walls" or "husbandry" or whatever despite that by this point in time there are already big walls and armored cavalry.

Hehe that is fun!
I think in my opinion everyone inside this forum just bying the game to get to the tech City Walls,
becuase it would look cool in the 3D-View,
and im the firste too agree..LOL....

 

[Alpha2518]

Honestly, technology should be minor in this era. The Romans were famously conservative with technology.

Should be countered by roman adaptability. They were also famous for picking up anything they saw as useful that they could use and use better. So acquiring technology from people they are either fighting (military technology, IE Gladius) or conquered (admin, economical, trade, etc tech, IE the barrel.)