Technology: what is the ideal system for this time period?

[UVpickles]

For those old time eu4 players, you may remember the boring old static technology system. This system was flawwed mainly because the world was locked into a specific way of development, as the europeans were always destined to be the leaders in technology. Most eu4 games typically go this route, as would make sense historically, but now the player, and occasionally the ai, can catch up with the west and even become leaders in technology.

The good thing about this system is that it's dynamic. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. Not only does it open up new ways to change the course of history, but it also makes peacetime much more enjoyable as institutions, and their development, offer another way to engage the player and make the world more immersive.

My question to the community is what kind of system do you want to see?

Personally, I'd like to see a dynamic system like eu4 and ck2 as it's much more interactive. But, I'd also like more interactions and ways to develop your technology in a more specific way.

I don't exactly have a complete mapped out idea of what I'd like, but I'll definitely fill you guys in if I come up with anything. If you have any specific ideas regarding a more interactive system, let me know. If you disagree entirely, I'd love to hear why.

Thanks

 

[Zaszamonde]

Honestly, technology should be minor in this era. The Romans were famously conservative with technology.

 

[Amallric]

EU series technology is still horrid, and institutions as they were implemented only made it worse. It is a board game system that's been there since EU1 and that should have been scrapped completely long ago. I hope Rome and subsequent Paradox games have a completely different tech system. They probably should go for something like institutions, but granting specific advantages and non-linear. Tech levels should just be removed completely.

 

[The Shacks]

EU series technology is still horrid, and institutions as they were implemented only made it worse. It is a board game system that's been there since EU1 and that should have been scrapped completely long ago. I hope Rome and subsequent Paradox games have a completely different tech system. They probably should go for something like institutions, but granting specific advantages and non-linear. Tech levels should just be removed completely.

You might be onto something there. A tech system built from the ground up more akin to EU4's institution system in its basis....that could be kinda good. Techs pop up once in a region determined by RNG and incremental bonuses you can grab to make it more likely then once said tech has popped it spreads from the location.

 

[Tim O]

EU series technology is still horrid, and institutions as they were implemented only made it worse. It is a board game system that's been there since EU1 and that should have been scrapped completely long ago. I hope Rome and subsequent Paradox games have a completely different tech system. They probably should go for something like institutions, but granting specific advantages and non-linear. Tech levels should just be removed completely.

What exactly do you mean by non-linear?

 

[Black Turtle]

Frankly technology prior to the rise of gunpowder wasn't that big of a deal. Ya you had special weapons and armour like crossbows or plate but essentially what it boiled down to was a bunch of guys bashing each other with metal sticks until one side ran away. This was warfare in a nutshell until the 15th to 16th centuries. Technology really needs to be toned down as a determining factor in games that aren't gunpowder era or later.

 

[ikki]

What exactly do you mean by non-linear?

Meaning you dont neccesarily go 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10...
But instead perhaps 1,4,7,12,13,5,8,15,20 (or whatever strikes our fancy... ie you have been doing and thus improving)

So field nothing but elephants and chariots... and those techs would increase but you would knw very ´little about legions or archers. Similarily no temple building or libraries and culture tech goes nowhere.

So sit tight as a pussyfist and simply build beautiful temples, write sublime poetry and make wondorous librares... and then when barbarians come kncking notice you might have pretty good siege tech (from math, engineering, maybe some metallurgy) but know absolutely nothing about military formations or such.

Add to all that above techspread, and things should be pretty perfect.

 

[icedt729]

From a historical perspective, "technology" should be almost irrelevant. What should matter instead is good management of population, infrastructure and resources.

 

[ikki]

From a historical perspective, "technology" should be almost irrelevant. What should matter instead is good management of population, infrastructure and resources.

dunno.. waterlocks, steam engines, planets being counted etc.. let alone math proofs that were rediscovered again only in 1990! (iirc that was some old stuff on reused monk parchments, found with some xrays)

 

[icedt729]

I don't mean to say there wasn't any new knowledge, but those math proofs don't help you harvest more wheat, build faster ships or kill barbarians more efficiently.

 

[sparta105]

Meaning you dont neccesarily go 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10...
But instead perhaps 1,4,7,12,13,5,8,15,20 (or whatever strikes our fancy... ie you have been doing and thus improving)

So field nothing but elephants and chariots... and those techs would increase but you would knw very ´little about legions or archers. Similarily no temple building or libraries and culture tech goes nowhere.

So sit tight as a pussyfist and simply build beautiful temples, write sublime poetry and make wondorous librares... and then when barbarians come kncking notice you might have pretty good siege tech (from math, engineering, maybe some metallurgy) but know absolutely nothing about military formations or such.

Add to all that above techspread, and things should be pretty perfect.

This. This is the ideal system.

 

[ikki]

I don't mean to say there wasn't any new knowledge, but those math proofs don't help you harvest more wheat, build faster ships or kill barbarians more efficiently.

Might be pretty useful to be able to predict the nile, divert extra water and use dams to feed water later or so the widom was back then. These guys certainly seemed to value the idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation_works_in_ancient_Sri_Lanka
Certainly will help for ships, that is if nothing an exercise in standardization, massproduction and tolerance limits. All of which needs math. How else to figure out the best way to cut up a tree considering drying and swelling and curvatures... without having entirely wrong pieces at the shipyard half the time.

As for killing barbarians cold logic always worked better than hot rage. Planning chariot paths, archery range.. running speeds of hoplites and legions into cleared areas for redeployment into orbis formation etc.. But yes, math probarbly isnt the best way to figure out any kind of batte tactics. those come from endless fighting.

 

[icedt729]

Might be pretty useful to be able to predict the nile, divert extra water and use dams to feed water later or so the widom was back then. These guys certainly seemed to value the idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation_works_in_ancient_Sri_Lanka
Certainly will help for ships, that is if nothing an exercise in standardization, massproduction and tolerance limits. All of which needs math. How else to figure out the best way to cut up a tree considering drying and swelling and curvatures... without having entirely wrong pieces at the shipyard half the time.

As for killing barbarians cold logic always worked better than hot rage. Planning chariot paths, archery range.. running speeds of hoplites and legions into cleared areas for redeployment into orbis formation etc.. But yes, math probarbly isnt the best way to figure out any kind of batte tactics. those come from endless fighting.

I think when you read my post, what you took from it was "math is not useful."

What I was trying to say was "there was no mathematical advance during this period which yielded anything like the major economic or military benefits that EU, Vicky or HOI techs regularly yield." The idea of unlocking a "production efficiency +10%" or "factory output efficiency +10%" in a Classical context is ridiculous, whether it's based on math or anything else. I'd argue they're mostly ridiculous in an EU context too, but I digress.

 

[alvaro]

Maybe not many breakthroughs in the period but there are organization techs that made the difference with other places in terms of development of trade, architecture, mining, some rudimentary banking or latifundia (De Re Rustica). Also coin devaluation
Hopefully no investigation of "chickens" as in CK1

 

[Bluekkis]

Game time span is so short that technology as something to research should have no major impact. However world was not technologically uniform either, so technological spread and adaptation of existing ideas should be a thing, and quite a lot of 'new' ideas should be coming from east as china/india were probably more advanced in raw technology than any western nation at the time.

 

[Tim O]

From a historical perspective, "technology" should be almost irrelevant. What should matter instead is good management of population, infrastructure and resources.

Weren't the Romans renowned for their infrastructure? The roads and the aqueducts and the invention of concrete, etc. It certainly gave them an edge.

 

[kente]

Weren't the Romans renowned for their infrastructure? The roads and the aqueducts and the invention of concrete, etc. It certainly gave them an edge.

They are still renowned. I came from a city close to Rome (actually close to the old city of Tusculum) and roman roads are everywhere and still used, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian_Way#Via_Appia_antica

The first 5 kilometers (3 mi) are still heavily used by cars, buses and coaches but from then on traffic is very light and the ruins can be explored on foot in relative safety.

or the aqueduct of Segovia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_of_Segovia#Subsequent_history

It had been kept functioning throughout the centuries and preserved in excellent condition. It provided water to Segovia until the mid 19th century

About the topic, while i agree there weren't any breakthrough discoveries, there were advancements in technologies. Probably the @ikki suggestion is the most accurate way to represent the development and spread of technologies

 

[MAHak]

Maybe the technology aspect of the game should be less about groundbreaking technological discoveries and more about preservation and making sure that your population is skilled and able to apply technologies in their work.
So if you herd people into a big metropolis and have them eat bread and watch games all day, or lounge on a sofa while being fed wine grapes by a slave, then they might have a hard time figuring out how to build an aquaduct or a ship or forge an amour.
As others have mentioned, there are plenty of example of ancient knowledge or technologies that was 'lost' because there wasn't a centralised state to preserve them.

 

[Kliwarrior]

The technology development in the Classic period was not as far as those in the subsequent centuries (especially after XVI c.) but was far from completely not present.
Here below some of the invention or improvement on existing techs during the roman empire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_technology#Technologies_developed_or_invented_by_the_Romans

 

[SwordOfCentury]

Actually most of the Roman innovations was copying directly from the Greek /batch/theaters, Etruscan/Siege-technology/steel?/Iron
Iberian Gladius/Steel-combination,
technology in this period was EVEN MORE important than today, as there were secret gills that only
they had the technology/information, for example the steel/combination in the Gladius or the Ferrata (Segmentata).
Thats was the reason they had some problems with the Dacians, because
the agreements was they had insight in their (Romans) Production.
So i disagree technology in this kind of age was x-tra importan,
just think of Archimedes in the siege of Syracuse, if you combine Einstein/Tesla/Oppenheimer for good value,
you get the idea of Archimedes, he was many hundred years ahead of the other "city-states" tyrannic-states (in a good kind)...
Or for that kind of mather Carthagian sea-technology, that they in their turn borrowed from the Mesopotamia.
This i dead end for Paradox if they dont emphasize on the extreme importance of technology,
there is nothing new under the sun, tech was as important today as it were back then.
As a sidenote was the "Sea-people" 1200 BC had technology that had iron in it...
I let you suck on that tidbit a little while...