technology snowballing: any mechanics against it?

technology snowballing: any mechanics against it?

  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Red_warning

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jul 5, 2010
2.996
2.468
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Victoria 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
Too bad I said "sent", not "filed".

I am not saying that the relationship between population size and scientific progress is 1:1. I simply disagree with using China and India as examples considering they actually are leading in things we can actually see, such as academic papers and patent applications.

But I agree. It is hard to determine who is and isn't a "leading scientific power". We can merely give a rough list based on things we can see and count. I also agree that the relationship between population size and "scientific output" is pretty complex. After all, China went centuries where it most definitely wasn't in the lead by any metric.
Natural science Nobel laureates per capita? Not a perfect indicator perhaps (Faroe Islands is hardly a scientific center) but it tells you something about the scientific output of a country.
 
Last edited:

vfmikey

Major
59 Badges
Apr 17, 2014
560
896
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
It is simplistic sonreal its also pretty dang accurate.

How many ideas or inventions excluding say the last 350 years weren't done in china first?

Gunpowder? Sailing ships? The compass? printing presses? accurate census's? First calculators/computers? Cast iron? The list continues almost indefinitely.

But your right konrad they aren't currently the leading edge of tech. But within the last 30 years (roughly) they've gone from third world country status to a first world nation, their still behind the curve on the top nations, but their gaining at a remarkable rate.

Its not so much that having more people means you can throw more people on the job. (science wise at least) But having more people makes it more likely to have more of the super brilliant people we cite with pushing technology ahead by leaps and bounds
1. Modern China was a third world country only in the stricte political meaning of the term - neither western nor Soviet. They were never "third wordly" since they became PRC in terms of research, industry or military.
2. Your point is actually supporting the other argument. Getting something done first doesn't mean much. Oil pumps were invented in Poland - do you see Poland getting in on all that oil drilling? Not really. What matters is implementation.
Research in those games isn't, in my mind, anything like "Hey, I just invented wheel!", rather "Hey, I just found a way to use the brilliant invention of wheel to establish road network between our major cities and use it to power all kinds of crazy shit, like mills and... mills!"
And in this meaning smaller nations are exactly the ones getting cheaper tech. Look at Israel - THE nation, when it comes to implementing high-tech in both military and civilian areas. Road safety "happened" in Sweden rather then the US not because the Americans were too dumb and "gas"-high to invent the three-point safety belt, but because it was easier to implement in smaller country with fewer people/cars.
 
  • 4
  • 3
Reactions:

EntropyAvatar

General
69 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
2.113
2.261
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings III
  • 500k Club
I've always wanted space strategy game that modeled scientific advancement as the generation and flow of ideas within an empire and between empires. In Stellaris terms, each pop would have a tiny chance each month to "have an idea" that unlocks a technology that the pop wasn't exposed to before. The chance of having that idea depends on how advanced the tech is, prereqs and the social condition and academic freedom of the pop (are you the kind of society that encourages new ideas or not? slaves don't give you ideas, etc).

Once the idea is there, it can spread pretty easily to pops on the same planet, and via civilian ships and/or imperial bureaucracy to other planets in the empire. It can also spread by trade, research agreements or espionage to other empires. Social attitudes might also affect how easily new ideas spread to your people.

To move past the idea stage, you'd need to assign a research team to turn the idea into working technology (or refine existing technology), but the research teams can get a big boost by having plans or already working examples of the tech.

So you end up with a scenario where to generate ideas internally, you want to be an open society. But unless you are very big, you probably can't keep up on your own without also getting ideas from other empires. So you want those trade connections, communications, basically wide-band contact with other empires so they ideas they generate can spread to your pops. Except of course that it's a two-way street, and your ideas will be spreading to them.

A small empire, even if it is highly innovative internally, can't really afford to cut itself off from the general flow of ideas since it probably won't have enough pops to generate ideas internally. What it can do it try to prevent transmission of the implementations, especially of military technology (unless to an approved ally). Society-wide tech would be harder to prevent leaking out, particularly if you have any kind of trade relationship.

I think I'd prefer this sort of organic model of idea flow or contagion rather than each empire developing technology in it's own silo and possibly trading it only as a high-level interaction between governments. I mean, in the organic model you can do tech in your own silo if you want, but you risk falling far behind more open societies.
 
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:

chrisjwmartin

Captain
48 Badges
Mar 4, 2013
377
821
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Your point is actually supporting the other argument. Getting something done first doesn't mean much. Oil pumps were invented in Poland - do you see Poland getting in on all that oil drilling? Not really. What matters is implementation.
Research in those games isn't, in my mind, anything like "Hey, I just invented wheel!", rather "Hey, I just found a way to use the brilliant invention of wheel to establish road network between our major cities and use it to power all kinds of crazy shit, like mills and... mills!"
That's actually a really great way of looking at it.
 

Red_warning

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jul 5, 2010
2.996
2.468
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Victoria 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
1. Modern China was a third world country only in the stricte political meaning of the term - neither western nor Soviet. They were never "third wordly" since they became PRC in terms of research, industry or military.
2. Your point is actually supporting the other argument. Getting something done first doesn't mean much. Oil pumps were invented in Poland - do you see Poland getting in on all that oil drilling? Not really. What matters is implementation.
Research in those games isn't, in my mind, anything like "Hey, I just invented wheel!", rather "Hey, I just found a way to use the brilliant invention of wheel to establish road network between our major cities and use it to power all kinds of crazy shit, like mills and... mills!"
And in this meaning smaller nations are exactly the ones getting cheaper tech. Look at Israel - THE nation, when it comes to implementing high-tech in both military and civilian areas. Road safety "happened" in Sweden rather then the US not because the Americans were too dumb and "gas"-high to invent the three-point safety belt, but because it was easier to implement in smaller country with fewer people/cars.
During Mao's regime, roughly 30 millions starved to death. Tens of millions more died due to forced labour. That's pretty third world.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

LordPavel

Major
59 Badges
Jan 5, 2015
619
320
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
You try to compare a single country (China) versus one country (for example England). But the technology research and the concrete evolution of England is totally dependent of the research of France + Germany + USA + Spain + Italia + ............ England can fire all scientists, England will continue to improve with the foreign country.
Same logic for China and every country in the world. Most of the technology in one country is not from this country.

If one day we meet another specie, both we will have totally different technology and will be totally independent; until we copy, share and stole (both side). That will be a different system that we know.

Today it is very hard to have an Einstein, because Einstein was beyond everybody and was lucky to find something very special. Today, we have very more scientist, so it is hard to be beyond, and it is more have to be lucky, because there less special and fondamental staff to find, the easy one are know.

And we dont care about how the true is. We must care only how make a funny system.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

vfmikey

Major
59 Badges
Apr 17, 2014
560
896
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
During Mao's regime, roughly 30 millions starved to death. Tens of millions more died due to forced labour. That's pretty third world.
While in the second world Stalin's regime killed, what, 40 million people?

Today it is very hard to have an Einstein, because Einstein was beyond everybody and was lucky to find something very special. Today, we have very more scientist, so it is hard to be beyond, and it is more have to be lucky, because there less special and fondamental staff to find, the easy one are know.

And we dont care about how the true is. We must care only how make a funny system.
In the grand scheme of things single people don't matter. Where there's one popular and successful individual, there are always others, just behind them with similar ideas. Nuclear research would happen without Einstein, eventually. Basically, to every Edison, there is a Tesla.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Red_warning

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jul 5, 2010
2.996
2.468
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Victoria 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
While in the second world Stalin's regime killed, what, 40 million people?
The majority of those deaths were not caused by starvation, that's the difference. If starvation can't be used as a third world criteria then there are no third world nations.
 

vfmikey

Major
59 Badges
Apr 17, 2014
560
896
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
That's going pretty away from topic. Both of those were planned mass murders, only thing is Mao was more resilient in his then Stalin. It was a planned famine, not a lack of food - a lack of distribution, to say. The Great Chinese Famine happened because of the Peoples Republic of China, not because of droughts, floods or other disasters and even the PRC government recognizes it.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Heatth

Lt. General
66 Badges
Apr 1, 2012
1.665
1.627
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
The majority of those deaths were not caused by starvation, that's the difference. If starvation can't be used as a third world criteria then there are no third world nations.
I suppose, then, the British empire was a third world nation?
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Traum77

Second Lieutenant
54 Badges
Aug 13, 2013
133
150
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
I've always wanted space strategy game that modeled scientific advancement as the generation and flow of ideas within an empire and between empires. In Stellaris terms, each pop would have a tiny chance each month to "have an idea" that unlocks a technology that the pop wasn't exposed to before. The chance of having that idea depends on how advanced the tech is, prereqs and the social condition and academic freedom of the pop (are you the kind of society that encourages new ideas or not? slaves don't give you ideas, etc).

Once the idea is there, it can spread pretty easily to pops on the same planet, and via civilian ships and/or imperial bureaucracy to other planets in the empire. It can also spread by trade, research agreements or espionage to other empires. Social attitudes might also affect how easily new ideas spread to your people.

To move past the idea stage, you'd need to assign a research team to turn the idea into working technology (or refine existing technology), but the research teams can get a big boost by having plans or already working examples of the tech.
This would be my preferred approach to science too - Vic 2 used a similar method with the chance of discovering an idea increasing depending on whether others have already discovered it, etc. I think there's a really good opportunity to turn that into part of the political game as well: a further incentive for peaceful expansion through mutual research pacts, a natural drift through alliances, etc. Basically a way for taller empires to keep up with wide ones that have built their research ability through sheer domination of star systems.
 

CatsPajamas

First Lieutenant
29 Badges
Mar 20, 2016
203
305
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
This would be my preferred approach to science too - Vic 2 used a similar method with the chance of discovering an idea increasing depending on whether others have already discovered it, etc. I think there's a really good opportunity to turn that into part of the political game as well: a further incentive for peaceful expansion through mutual research pacts, a natural drift through alliances, etc. Basically a way for taller empires to keep up with wide ones that have built their research ability through sheer domination of star systems.
Yes, thank you Traum77. You beat me to mentioning Victoria 2's system, which seems to reflect the kind of thing EntropyAvatar was thinking. However, it's worthwhile to note the Victoria 2 implementation wasn't without issue. Researching technology allowed a number of Inventions to be invented/discovered, but each had a random chance per month. Only certain Inventions like the colonization inventions and some military ones had an increased chance of happening if other nations had them. This means you could research the technology to invent X-Rays, and not actually invent X-Rays until years later!

It would definitely be interesting to see a game model natural technology growth and spread throughout society, but implementing that in a way that's mechanically engaging for the player seems like quite a hurdle. The whole point of such a system would be to make the society feel more alive/real, but unless the player can meaningfully interact with it it's likely to just be ignored - much like a lot of Victoria 2's economy model.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Remoria

First Lieutenant
1 Badges
Jan 21, 2014
284
448
  • Crusader Kings II
1. Modern China was a third world country only in the stricte political meaning of the term - neither western nor Soviet. They were never "third wordly" since they became PRC in terms of research, industry or military.
2. Your point is actually supporting the other argument. Getting something done first doesn't mean much. Oil pumps were invented in Poland - do you see Poland getting in on all that oil drilling? Not really. What matters is implementation.
Research in those games isn't, in my mind, anything like "Hey, I just invented wheel!", rather "Hey, I just found a way to use the brilliant invention of wheel to establish road network between our major cities and use it to power all kinds of crazy shit, like mills and... mills!"
And in this meaning smaller nations are exactly the ones getting cheaper tech. Look at Israel - THE nation, when it comes to implementing high-tech in both military and civilian areas. Road safety "happened" in Sweden rather then the US not because the Americans were too dumb and "gas"-high to invent the three-point safety belt, but because it was easier to implement in smaller country with fewer people/cars.

First doing something first is exactly what it means. Upgrading your infrastructure to use the new tech is an entirely different thing. In stellaris this would be the equivalent of sending your ships to be refit with the new weapon systems, building that nice new attachment to the starport you've got. Secondly you make the presumption that they didn't infact use all of aforementioned technologies. These weren't theoretical ideas, these were major innovations that were used in china and the rest of the world for centuries after being created. Or are you telling me you don't enjoy a standardized public government funded education? If that is indeed the case I laud your dedication to learning.


Secondly we've decided china isn't a third world country before the 60s why exactly? Is it their industrial might? No not really, what little they have is funded by the soviets and ran by soviet advisers. Their military might? Again no, they have a large force of primarily guerrilla fighters armed with weapons that were old during the first world war. Now during the 1950's, the soviet union again funds equips and modernizes china's army so that by the sixties china's army is actually a coherent trained and equipped force. Research? Well no not unless count Mao's theories and work as social research. Political influence? We'll maybe there's some arguments for that point going both ways. However, for most of the first decade of the PRC the term often used to describe their relationship by scholars with the soviets is client state.


And next were equating, a single year of famine in russias case which killed 3.2 million people in a localized area, And Britains great famine that killed a million over the course of 4 years to several years or nationwide famine that killed between 30 and 40 million people and were declaring all three of these equal and clear signs of third world status?
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

EntropyAvatar

General
69 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
2.113
2.261
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings III
  • 500k Club
Yes, thank you Traum77. You beat me to mentioning Victoria 2's system, which seems to reflect the kind of thing EntropyAvatar was thinking. However, it's worthwhile to note the Victoria 2 implementation wasn't without issue. Researching technology allowed a number of Inventions to be invented/discovered, but each had a random chance per month. Only certain Inventions like the colonization inventions and some military ones had an increased chance of happening if other nations had them. This means you could research the technology to invent X-Rays, and not actually invent X-Rays until years later!

It would definitely be interesting to see a game model natural technology growth and spread throughout society, but implementing that in a way that's mechanically engaging for the player seems like quite a hurdle. The whole point of such a system would be to make the society feel more alive/real, but unless the player can meaningfully interact with it it's likely to just be ignored - much like a lot of Victoria 2's economy model.
Yes, thanks Traum77 for bringing up V2. I guess I'd want things kind of the other way around from V2. Instead of researching the broad area and then randomly getting the applications, you would get the broad ideas via semi-random factors and need to direct research to get the applications of the idea. So a highly isolated empire might have highly refined lasers but never have made the conceptual breakthroughs needed for phasors. On the other hand, maybe they have some rare tech that they've been improving for decades that no one else has even heard of.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

stratigo

Major
67 Badges
Aug 14, 2006
644
330
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sword of the Stars II
During Mao's regime, roughly 30 millions starved to death. Tens of millions more died due to forced labour. That's pretty third world.
No it isn't.

Third world has an actual meaning.

There's a reason that scholars today talk in developed and developing world and not first, second, and third world these days. First, second, and third worlds strictly referred to western aligned Capitalist democratic nations, the second to communist/soviet aligned nations, and the third to everyone else. There wasn't a regard to economic development except as implied by which theory of economics you prefer

While in the second world Stalin's regime killed, what, 40 million people?



In the grand scheme of things single people don't matter. Where there's one popular and successful individual, there are always others, just behind them with similar ideas. Nuclear research would happen without Einstein, eventually. Basically, to every Edison, there is a Tesla.
Stalin did not kill nearly 40 million people. Mao was by far the more incompetent a dictator. You only get 40 million deaths by pretnding Stalin was also a nazi and all 20 million war casaulties of the USSR were caused by him. The remaining 20 million is also a GROSS inflation based on biased numbers. The most likely numbers are still pretty horrible, roughly 8 to 11 million last I checked, but people need to stop this inflation of Stalin as the worst ever because gosh durn it you hate the USSR and Russia so much.

You're comparing a starvation period that lasted 1 year to one that lasted 30.
The Great Leap Forward didn't last 30 years. The GLF was where the vast majority of starvation and the majority of all deaths attributable to Mao's reign occur.

Also the largest difference between the Holdomor and the Great Leap Forward is that Stalin was well aware of what he was doing. He didn't care. He wanted central control of grain production so that the USSR could profit and industrialize. It's why the Holdomor happened to the fringe, though there was general famine at several points for the same reason, Stalin usually backed off when it was Russians doing the starving. Dizzy with success and all. Mao was largely deluded enough to believe his plans would centralize control, industrialize the nation, and still have enough food production to feed the majority of his people.

That's going pretty away from topic. Both of those were planned mass murders, only thing is Mao was more resilient in his then Stalin. It was a planned famine, not a lack of food - a lack of distribution, to say. The Great Chinese Famine happened because of the Peoples Republic of China, not because of droughts, floods or other disasters and even the PRC government recognizes it.
The GLF was not a planned famine in the way the Holdomor was. It was a famine of incompetence. Stalin was literally too smart to let that many people die, especially that many people of the populations he gathered the majority of his support from like the Mao's famine managed to kill.
 
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:

ikki

Colonel
36 Badges
Nov 12, 2007
1.045
232
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
the promise of snowballing superpowerism is what gets any of us to bother to get out of bed. Without that, why bother doing anything if we are all made equal anyway?
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

stratigo

Major
67 Badges
Aug 14, 2006
644
330
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sword of the Stars II
the promise of snowballing superpowerism is what gets any of us to bother to get out of bed. Without that, why bother doing anything if we are all made equal anyway?
I think the Wiz has a wonderful quote for this occasion that I... am too lazy to look up. Suffice to say, they want the player to win, but not too easily because loosing is usually not fun but it is also not fun without a challenge.