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Gwalcmai

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And historically, convoys weren't introduced until 1917

Being somewhat of a nitpicker, the fact the british chose to not use convoys doesn't mean they weren't introduced. Convoys and armed escorts were introduced at the latest when Francis Drake and friends were annoying the hell out of the spanish in the caribbean. :p

And I don't know if the amphibious operations at Gallipolli were in essence that different from the portuguese operation in Ceuta in 1415. Get to the place you want to attack and fight the defenders on the beach. I don't know if that kind of amphibious operation deserves it's own tech. :D
 

StephenT

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Well yes, :rolleyes: I perhaps should have said "convoys weren't introduced during the First World War until 1917." :) In fact, I believe that standard navy doctrine in 1914 said that convoys were an old-fashioned, bad idea that would do more harm than good (by providing the enemy with a concentrated target). Realising that they were useful after all was a major step forward.

The Gallipoli operation basically involved anchoring the transports offshore, loading the men into rowing boats and paddling up to the beach. So, not much different from Julius Caesar in 55 BC, let alone the Portuguese in 1415. To me, developing an amphibious warfare doctrine worthy of the name would require specialist landing craft, troops who were actually trained in amphibious warfare, coordinating the Navy to provide close support, and making proper arrangements for supplying the troops once they were on shore. I don't think any of these had been properly thought out in 1915 - in fact, according to one book I've just checked, they weren't developed by anyone until Japan in the 1930s.
 

String

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Units - Armoured Trains

I looked through the Units thread quickly and didnt find any references to the Armoured trains (maybe i missed it?)

Anyway, is there any plans to introduce them to the game as they were VERY important in the russian civil war and the conflicts surrounding it. In essence they provided mobile artillery support and were in many ways similar to the use of tanks in ww2.

Almost every province in europe has railnetworks and if the trains are represented as units then they could be restricted from moving into desert and jungle provinces for instance?
 

Allenby

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No considerations for a seperate unit, as they weren't deployed in 'divisional' size, as such. Additionally, I think the artillery brigade attachments can cover all kinds of artillery, including the railway variety.
 

Shadow Knight

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Originally posted by String
okay.

Are there any tech considerations though?

Not that I know of, why don't you propose something in the tech thread. (If you can't find the link use the stickied thread and forum links thread.)
 

StephenT

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For reference: this should give an idea of the rate of progress of submarine design during this period.

British 'C' class submarine, designed 1906:
287 tons displacement, speed 13 knots (surfaced), range 1,000 nautical miles, 2 torpedo tubes with 4 x 18" torpedoes carried.

British 'E' class submarine, designed 1911: (the main type in use during the first half of the war)
655 tons displacement, speed 15 knots (surfaced), range 3,000 nautical miles, 4 torpedo tubes with 8 x 18" torpedoes carried, 1 12-pounder deck gun.

British 'L-50' class submarine, designed 1917:
960 tons displacement, speed 17 knots (surfaced), range 4,500 nautical miles, 6 torpedo tubes with 12 x 21" torpedoes carried, 2 4" deck guns.

German submarines were very similar:

The U-19 launched in October 1912 was the same size as a British E-class (650 tons), similar in speed (15.4 knots), much longer ranged (7,600 n.miles), and carried 6 x 19.7" torpedoes and an 88mm gun.

The U-93 launched in December 1916 was slightly smaller than a British L-50 class (838 tons), the same speed, again much longer ranged (8,300 n.miles), and carried 12 x 19.7" torpedoes plus a 4" (105mm) and 88mm gun.

French and Italian submarine design in 1914 was probably one level behind British and German. Same goes for the Japanese, who were using British-designed submarines at this time. Russia was two levels behind, with a lot of one-off prototypes and botched designs plus some gems. The USA was equal to Britain and Germany. Austria-Hungary got most of its submarines from Germany after the war began. Other countries either had no submarines (or bought them from abroad) or at most were building tiny, short-ranged craft that would figure more as coastal defences than naval vessels in HoI terms.

Finally, for comparison's sake, a German WW2 U-boat (Type VIIb) was 741 tons, 17 knots, 5 torpedo tubes with 14 x 21" torpedoes, an 88mm and a 20mm deck gun. In other words, much the same as its 1917 predecessor except for a slightly better armament.
 

Johan Elisson

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I would like to get some help with the naval doctrine tech tree, this is what I have gathered so far:

13xxx - Submarine Crew Training
13xxx - Unrestricted Submarine Warfare
13xxx - Anti-Submarine Warfare
13xxx - Blockade
13xxx - Distant Blockade
13xxx - Blockade Runner
13xxx - Airship-Naval Coordination
13xxx - Submarine-Naval Coordination
13xxx - Firepower vs. Armor
13xxx - Armor vs. Firepower
13xxx - Convoy Organization
13xxx - Scientific ballistics
13xxx - All-big-Gun Doctrine
13xxx - Naval Invasion Tactics
13xxx - Marine Troop Tactics
13xxx - Mahan doctrine
13xxx - Corbett doctrine
13xxx - Tsushima analysis
13xxx - Commerce raiding
13xxx - Mine barrages
13xxx - Ambhibious landings
13xxx - Blacklisting Blockade
13xxx - Dreadnought/Cuniberti doctrine

23 techs, which should be placed in six golden levels. I would like to see you guys arrange these techs under six cathegories, "before 1910", "1910-1912", "1912-1914", "1914-1916", "1916-1918", and "after 1918", just so that I can get a grip on the situation. :) Also specify if you have any thoughts about pre-req and such.

I will make my "tech working document" available for download tomorrow so that you all can see how the tech trees are looking at the moment (soon finished, actually!)

/Johan
 

Allenby

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Here's my opinion on the categorisation of those technologies:

13xxx - Submarine Crew Training (pre-1910)
13xxx - Unrestricted Submarine Warfare (1914-16)
13xxx - Anti-Submarine Warfare (pre-1910)
13xxx – Blockade (pre-1910)
13xxx - Distant Blockade (1912-14: Quite an original Churchillian idea, I think)
13xxx - Blockade Runner (pre-1910)
13xxx - Airship-Naval Coordination (1916-18)
13xxx - Submarine-Naval Coordination (1910-12)
13xxx - Firepower vs. Armour (pre-1910)
13xxx - Armour vs. Firepower (pre-1910)
13xxx - Convoy Organization (1916-18)
13xxx - Scientific ballistics (?)
13xxx - All-big-Gun Doctrine (pre-1910)
13xxx - Naval Invasion Tactics (pre-1910)
13xxx - Marine Troop Tactics (pre-1910)
13xxx - Mahan doctrine (pre-1910)
13xxx - Corbett doctrine (pre-1910)
13xxx - Tsushima analysis (same as Dreadnought/Cuniberti doctrine)
13xxx - Commerce raiding (pre-1910: Sir Francis Drake did a fair bit of this)
13xxx - Mine barrages (1914-16)
13xxx - Amphibious landings (post-1918: not of the Gallipolian kind)
13xxx - Blacklisting Blockade (1912-14)
13xxx - Dreadnought/Cuniberti doctrine (pre-1910)
 

Allenby

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Originally posted by Johan Elisson
Seems like we need more doctrines that where developed during the war, otherwise, Britain would have all techs researched by the start of the war. :p ;)

/Johan

Unless you could take some of those techs and place the word 'advanced' before them ;)
 

StephenT

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Where do Auxiliary Cruisers fit - here or in Naval Tech? They were a 1914-16 development by Germany.

Naval Statistical Analysis - 1916-18, by Britain. Prerequisite for convoy organisation.

Specialist Anti-Submarine Craft - 1916-18. Refers to the concept of using civilian shipbuilding facilities rather than specialised warship yards, since these sloops and corvettes were slow and unarmoured, but needed in huge quantities.

Standardised Ship Construction - 1916-18 (a lesser version of the WW2 Liberty Ship programme)

Airborne Observation (using land-based aircraft or towed balloons to observe fall of shot and scout for the enemy) - 1912-14 (improves spotting chance or naval attack. Needs prerequisites from the aircraft tech tree)
Airborne Scouting (using seaplanes carried with the fleet) - 1914-16
Naval Aviation (primitive aircraft carriers, still mostly used for scouting) - 1916-18
Naval Bombers - post 1918
Anti-Submarine Aircraft Patrols - 1916-18 (a grand total of about 6 U-boats were sunk by aircraft, but they were most useful in forcing submarines to submerge)
 

Johan Elisson

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Many good ideas! The Auxiliary Cruisers could be a doctrine, since the Naval Tree is stuffed full with everything else, and they aren't going to be a unit, so they could probably go here.

/Johan
 

Shadow Knight

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What about something along the lines of modern naval logistics? Making sure the right equipment, men, and supplies go to the right ships.
 

Johan Elisson

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I promised you my tech working document, to see how stuff look, and here it is:

» TGW Tech

I think it is pretty understandable. As you will see, all trees (except gas) have what I call a skeleton, which means that they have been assigned numbers, and where it is obvious, pre-requisites. Most techs have not been assigned any benefits, and that is what next weekend is all about for me. :) Enjoy.

[edited typo]

/Johan
 
Last edited:

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Gas? Zepplins? Scouts? How do they figure in?

As my title states, are we doing anything with Gas warfare, or zepplins or scout aircraft?


If we are, or haven't thought about it, we could put Zepplins in as slow, midrange bombers with a high assault value, and pretty high defensive value (it took a lot of shots to blow those babies up)

For scout aircraft, you could use a plan with no assault values (or defensive values) and rate the speed as it was back then.

Benifits to Scout aircraft , You can use them to see land/troops beyond the borders (when using Fog of War), possibly feints. Would require 1 IC, + 1 Manpower, but take a month to train.

Gas, well, asll the Antitank addon to land divisions won't be used, could you modify the antitank bit, so it could give say, +20 Soft damage?

It should also add to the IC by say 5, and take seven more months to make.

(Though problems with that, I.e. Cav with gas..., or Gas warfare, EVERYwhere. Maybe we could simulate gas with the flying bombs, change the Icon and such)
 

Shadow Knight

Admiral of the Fleet
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Apr 18, 2002
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Since you had a lot of '?' next to some of the tech's here are some ideas (got from C.O.R.E.): increase speed, an increase in fort attack/defense efficiency, increase/decrease in supply for units, increase range for aircraft, etc.


Have we planned any country specific techs? (Like C.O.R.E. has for Germany, Soviets, AI Soviets, France, Japan, and Italy.)