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Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Sun Zi,


tech group isn't about tech level. It's about rate of tech advance. Putting the Mughals in the orthodox tech group, especially if it's done briefly is rather hazardous. While in the orthodox group they will garner large neighbour bonuses, particularly if they are small, as they often are. (This assumes that things have been fixed so that orthodox group on average has a much higher tech level than the muslim. As of right now it doesn't always turn out that way in the EEP.) When they bounce back to the muslim group they will then provide all these bonuses to the muslims, particularly the small ones.

Ha! sensing a very weak argumentation here :D If we assume things have been fixed, the Mughals will not be small often. Nothing should be done to fit in a wrong situation, things need to fit in a right situation.
 
Originally posted by Garbon
So maybe just extra investments in land, via events? Besides, Babur only settled for India and lower Afghanistan after he got his butt kicked various times by the Uzbeks.

I think this certainly makes more sense, and probably works better. The problem is how/whether they should be scaled by country size, but I certainly would think some big "army reforms" could help out the Mughals.

Twoflower - the Mughals should certainly be small for some part of Babur's reign, which should net them a level or two before they expand. At any rate the size of the Mughals only mitigates the problem a little - India is very rich, and evn at historical size the Mughals will be getting quite a few tech levels while in the orthodox group.
 
Originally posted by Twoflower
Ha! sensing a very weak argumentation here :D If we assume things have been fixed, the Mughals will not be small often.

Now, thats just incorrect. :p The Mughals should indeed be small when they form, as Babur started his conquest of India, holding on only to Kandahar and Kabul, so that makes for two EU2 provinces. Its only when things are going wrong, like that default way of becoming the Mughals ;) , that there is any chance of a large Mughal Empire. So changing to Orthodox during Babur's reign should ideally, be a problem.
 
My Tests

I ran tests on my set up, which is very close to Lofman's proposal except for a few revolters. This is all done with the EEP. The tests were hands off, and run until 1619 (that means that Poland, Sweden and Turkey have changed tech groups).


All results are Latin/Orthodox/Muslim/China

5 runs of control
  1. average number 35/7/46/8
  2. median land 19/14/10/3
  3. median naval 16/9/3/2
  4. median trade 4.6/3.0/2.0/2.0
  5. median infra 4.4/3.0/2.8/2.0
    [/list=1]
    These represent the average of 5 medians, if that's not too unclear.

    Median seems a better measure because the average is skewed by isolated countries and China.

    In the one case where China went muslim group the results were
    1. median land 20/14/16/3
    2. median naval 17/9/3/2
    3. median trade 5/3/2/2
    4. median infra 5/3/3/2
      [/list=1]

      For four runs under my test condition the results are
      • average number 32/17/45/9
      • median land 18/12/7/4
      • median naval 14/7/3/2
      • median trade 4.0/2.5/2.0/2.0
      • median infra 4.0/3.0/3.0/2.0

      Looking at the numbers I think one has to conclude that the number of countries in the tech group has not had the decisive effect that I had expected. In fact adding countries has slowed the orthodox group. I guess this is because all the additional crappy countries bring down the avergae. For the sake of argument here are some stats for Russia.

      In the controls:
      land: 12/14/11/14/11
      naval: 6/4/3/3/4
      trade: 3/4/2/3/2
      infra: 3/3/3/3/3
      In the test
      land: 12/11/12/12
      naval: 4/3/5/3
      trade: 3/3/3/3
      infra: 3/3/3/3

      Which shows no real improvement, suggesting again that the neighbour bonus isn't the key factor that I had thought.
 
interesting results. maybe there are differences in the performance of the orthodox tech group as a whole in terms of their expansion? did you notice which nation was the most often the most advanced in the orthodox tech group after u added the countries.
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Sun Zi,

Sorry about that. What I meant was the following. You threw out the idea that instead of putting China in the muslim group is is given many tech bonus events over subsequent centuries - enough to put it at the tech levels it would have had in the muslim tech group. I don't want to dismiss this idea, but it will have the side effect of providing very big neighbour bonus' throughout the china tech group.

So that was basically a typo. I'm fixing it.
yep, i understand you now. i actually think that the side effect would be more or less desired. it would only be natural to see the whole Far Eastern region advance more rapidly behind China if China did.

ur results also show something needs to be done about the respective tech levels that are not historical. by 1619 the china group should still be slightly ahead of the orthodox group, let alone the muslim group. and the muslim group should be closer to the orthodox group IMO.
 
I disagree. China is not the same as the china tech group, and in things like trade I think the orthodox should be ahead by 1619. In fact I think that in military terms there is a decent case that the orthodox group ought to be ahead of the china group.

I'm not sure it's even possible to have relative tech advances be radically different between the 15th and 18th century.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I disagree. China is not the same as the china tech group, and in things like trade I think the orthodox should be ahead by 1619. In fact I think that in military terms there is a decent case that the orthodox group ought to be ahead of the china group.
i did say the china group. what ur results showed was not any case that is arguable or marginal. ur results showed that the median china group nation (obviously not China) is clearly a very long way behind the orthodox in 1619 (unless i m reading something wrong).
 
Yes, and I think they ought to be way behind. China itself is harder to say.
 
Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
interesting results. maybe there are differences in the performance of the orthodox tech group as a whole in terms of their expansion? did you notice which nation was the most often the most advanced in the orthodox tech group after u added the countries.

The top average tech (actually top ratio od tech to average of orthodox group, so as not to overweight land)

Test: Al Djazir (revolter) Poland Ragusa Albania

Control: Poland Russia Ragusa Poland/Transylvanis (tie) Trebizond.

Hard to know what to make of that.
 
Has anyone else noticed the Turks keeping their tech lead too long? They shift to muslim (probably) in 1615, but in my latest GC it's 1708 and they're still ahead of everyone except Austria, which is one level ahead in land. Shouldn't the Turks lose their tech advantage faster than that?
 
Originally posted by Count Six
Has anyone else noticed the Turks keeping their tech lead too long? They shift to muslim (probably) in 1615, but in my latest GC it's 1708 and they're still ahead of everyone except Austria, which is one level ahead in land. Shouldn't the Turks lose their tech advantage faster than that?

You're absolutely right, I observed the same thing. Due to the latin the there is not much of an Ottoman decline. In a recent EEP MP game of mine they were ahead of everybody in tech, had the most income and withstood a combined attack of Spain, France and Austria, despite owning only their cores and some colonies in East Africa and not performing exceptionally well before.
Especially with the changes to the orthodox techgroup in one of the last patches, they should really loose latin tech earlier. Perhaps we should move them to the orthodox group after Suleyman's death (i.e. in 1566) and to muslim in 1615?
 
Lose latin earlier, yes - but what about using something other than muslim later? If they get exotic, won't their tech levels stagnate? As it is, shifting to muslim doesn't seem to slow them down very much at all, so I'm thinking a more extreme measure is required.
 
Maybe put them in orthodox instead?

Part of the problem is that in the betas the differentials between tech groups were changed.
 
torthodox is worse than muslim? I thought it was the other way around, especially after the changes in 1.07/beta.

Anyway, I'm going to run a handsoff changing event 3379 to give the Turks exotic in 1615. I'll report back here.
 
Well the level costs are higher for muslim, but, particularly in these mods where there are so many muslim group countries, the neighbour bonus is a lot higher.

Are you using betas or 1.07? I think it makes a big difference for this issue.
 
I'm using 1.07/23july beta/EEP1.41.

I've just finished a handsoff with Ottomans having exotic after 1615 - I got up to 1738 before the CTD. The land tech leader was France with 41. Ottomans were at 16 when they shifted to exotic, and had reached 23 by then. That put them neck and neck with the Poles, and falling steadily behind the Austrians at 30 or so.

I haven't bothered to look into the mechanics of tech groups, but it seems as though even with the exotic group the Ottomans continue to make considerable progress - I suppose it's neighbor bonuses. With muslim, they never lose their lead at all, and I suspect orthodox wouldn't slow them down all that much either.
 
Originally posted by Count Six
I'm using 1.07/23july beta/EEP1.41.

I've just finished a handsoff with Ottomans having exotic after 1615 - I got up to 1738 before the CTD. The land tech leader was France with 41. Ottomans were at 16 when they shifted to exotic, and had reached 23 by then. That put them neck and neck with the Poles, and falling steadily behind the Austrians at 30 or so.

I haven't bothered to look into the mechanics of tech groups, but it seems as though even with the exotic group the Ottomans continue to make considerable progress - I suppose it's neighbor bonuses. With muslim, they never lose their lead at all, and I suspect orthodox wouldn't slow them down all that much either.

They wouldn't be getting a neighbour bonus as exotic. Are they too innovative/centralized?
 
Here's the current data from the savegame:

Code:
[color=white] policy = { 
        date = { year = 0 month = january day = 0 } 
        aristocracy = 6 
        centralization = 2 
        innovative = 5 
        mercantilism = 10 
        offensive = 10 
        land = 8 
        quality = 6 
        serfdom = 8
[/color]

Doesn't look very innovative or centralized. I have never examined the Ottomans' event file, so I don't know if there are a lot of event-driven DP changes, but I doubt the Turks have ever been either centralized or innovative. So, if no neighbor bonus, what's keeping their tech moving forward? And whatever it is, is it what keeps them leading the pack when they are tech: muslim.
 
Originally posted by Count Six
Here's the current data from the savegame:

Code:
[color=white] policy = { 
        date = { year = 0 month = january day = 0 } 
        aristocracy = 6 
        centralization = 2 
        innovative = 5 
        mercantilism = 10 
        offensive = 10 
        land = 8 
        quality = 6 
        serfdom = 8
[/color]

Doesn't look very innovative or centralized. I have never examined the Ottomans' event file, so I don't know if there are a lot of event-driven DP changes, but I doubt the Turks have ever been either centralized or innovative. So, if no neighbor bonus, what's keeping their tech moving forward? And whatever it is, is it what keeps them leading the pack when they are tech: muslim.
Possibly their outstanding wealth and having converted all of the Balkan to Sunni?
 
Why is 23 such a bad number? In fact, that sounds a little too low for them, even in 1738. Do you want to stop them completely at 16? That seems a little off base.