• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Lofman

Safe One
33 Badges
Mar 14, 2002
1.579
9
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
Here is some ideas I have regarding tech groups for some nations. Some if it may be already taken care of, unessecary by some other reason, needs tweaking , or is simply not good. Well here it goes:

EUROPE:
Sweden: To orthodox until Gustav Vasa
Poland: To latin until Union with Lithaunia
Hungary: To latin until death of Mátyás Corvin
Ottoman Empire: To latin until the Effects of the provincial system or what that event is called.
Croatia: If independent it may be in latin same time as Hungary.

AFRICA:
Nubia: If still exotic then up to china or muslim.
North African coast from Morocco to, but not including, Mameluks: To orthodox

ASIA:
Karaman, Candar & Those: To orthodox
Bengal & Vijayanagar: Up to muslim, or rest of India down to china
Southeast Asia: Up to muslim (but only if Bengal and Vijayanagar are raised)
 
I've done some testing on much of this. Will report tommorrow (want to get the numbers).

Not sure why Hungary should be latin until death of Corvinus. That's pretty early on, so it doesn't make that much difference, and if there is a problem with tech increasing their starting tech is a simpler solution.

As discussed (by Mueller) in this thread the orthodox tech group is very weak because it gets miserable neighbour bonuses. I tested with the EEP, which has oodles of muslim countries. providing neighbour bonuses that make it nearly as good as the orthodox tech group. Every country that is removed from the orthodox tech group hurts the neighbour bonuses for the entire group, and a big problem with the game is that the orthodox group is too freaking small. If it were up to me I'd keep Poland orthodox from the start as well, but it isn't.

What I'm looking at is moving the Ottomans into the orthodox tech group for a while before dropping them into muslim. This provides big boosts if it's timed right. I'm also putting all of North Africa (bar the Mamelukes for obvious reasons) in the orthodox group. Along with everyone else in Eastern Europe (Teutonic Knights, Duchy of Prussia, and revolters like Kazan, Crimea and Astrakhan. All of this ought to help out Russia quite a bit, by expanding the orthodox tech group and contracting the muslim one.

The North Africans did pretty well against Europeans in the 16th century (Djerba, Tunis, etc.), so that makes some sense.

Plus the chinese group could be helped by adding Benal and Vijayanagar. It's not a bad idea. In the EEP the china group is very small, but does OK because China provides good neighbour bonuses. If China goes muslim then everything gets bizarre, the China tech group stagnates and the muslims get powered up to where they are as good as orthodox.

edit: credited Mueller
 
Last edited:
very informative link. i think in the end, really, the tech groups affect techspeed in such a complicated way that sticking with labels would be an obstacle to achieving more realistic outcomes. so i support some rearrangement of the tech groups to make things more realistic.

seeing that tech dvancement for a nation can be greatly boosted by how far behind it is from other nations in the same techgroup (neighbour bonus), and small nations are most likely to be the ones who are ahead, expanding the orthodox techgroup to include muslim or latin minors would give a boost to Russia. I think it is a good idea since there are so many latin minors that removing some of them to the orthodox group would not reduce the speed at which other latin nation advances.

as for China, i think it is way too easy to go muslim techgroup anyway. it should not be a simple free ride to become expansionist. so i think whether it should be allowed to switch muslim is questionable. if we allow it in the end, i think one possible solution to the bizarre effect could be to switch the entire group to muslim rather than just switch China. that would be better than seeing a huge tech gap between china and its neighbours and then another huge tech gap between them and muslim countries further away. another possible solution is to give China ownership to all of the poor Manchu provinces, which may or may not slow its tech significantly, and Manchu would gain independence when it historically did two centuries into the game, thus eliminating the tech gap between China and Manchu.
 
Maybe China Should start out in the China Tech Group, with all the other asian nations around it being in the Muslim group. China would still be more powerfull, and would probably keep up due to it's wealth China would then have the option of eventually becoming Muslim and joining it's neighbors.

Late,
Jester
 
i guess that might solve the bizarre situation. but that may give the muslim techgroup a boost, which i dunno if it's desired. and the advancement of China's neighbours wont be affected by China, which is probably not historical.
 
What sort of technological division did exist between the "Middle-East Region" Persia to East India ? and SEASIA-China-Nippon ?

Were the Asian countries that much farther behind the Middle East to warrant their own tech group ? It seems like China group was really just created for China itself to balance out how wealthy it is with how technologically backwards it was.

If there needs to be a definite differentiation between SEASIA and Middle East then Having China choose the Muslim Tech Group should definitely cause the other asian nations to also switch over.

Shoudl China really be able to become Muslim, maybe just gettin DP shifts towards Innovativness would be more historical?

LAte,
Jester
 
u may have forgotten that the Far East was ahead of the Middle East throughout most of history (actually, i think it may even be true to say including the past few centuries). just look at shipbuiding, astronomy, bureaucratic/legal system, gunpowder weapons and medicine as basic examples. of course the influence of China meant that the technology generally is spread first to SE Asia, etc. so that area should generally have higer tech than Muslims.

if China should be able to switch to Muslim, it would advance even faster, and would also give bonus to the entire tech group. i tend to think that is not realistic bcoz even if China became a more progressive country that should not have a big impact on the Middle East.
 
I think you've hit the nail on the head, but...

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36

seeing that tech dvancement for a nation can be greatly boosted by how far behind it is from other nations in the same techgroup (neighbour bonus), and small nations are most likely to be the ones who are ahead, expanding the orthodox techgroup to include muslim or latin minors would give a boost to Russia. I think it is a good idea since there are so many latin minors that removing some of them to the orthodox group would not reduce the speed at which other latin nation advances.
If you look at the formula this can help to slow the latin group a fair amount. When everyone is at the same tech level the neighbour bonus is driven by the number ofcountries in the tech group. Still this is a minor point.

I will post my results later, but I'd like to point out that putting everybody but China in the china tech group poses serious problems as it will make the muslim tech group huge, which in turn will give significant neighbour bonuses to the group as a whole.

Possibly an outward loooking China could have subsequent events (after 50 years or more) putting it back into the china group (and bringing monster neighbour bonuses with it), or suffering dire consequences.
 
Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
-snip-
just look at -snip- gunpowder weapons
Here i'd haveto say China wasn't as advanced...Japan perhaps may have been though. China didn't use them for much beyond minor explosives. Japan used them also for small rockets....neither used for any type of cannon or gun of any real signifgance.
 
i dunno where u got that from, but i didnt say that China only was more advanced in those areas, i said the Far East was more advanced than the Middle East. i never said that China was most advanced in gunpowder specifically. in any case, China did use gunpowder for small rockets and cannons, in fact they invented all sorts of weapons that make use of the gunpowder and cannons had been in use at least as early as two centuries before the game starts. In "Jian Kang Zhi", it was recorded that the number of gunpowder weaponry stored in Jian Kang alone (modern Nanjing) during 1260-1264 was 63 754 pieces. of significance here is two of the many types of gunpowder weapons mentioned, one is the "iron cannon", the other is the "sharp fire gun". the "sharp fire gun" makes use of a bamboo barrel, inserting a bullet inside, and then use gunpowder to fire it. this was recorded in the classic "History of Sung" part 197 "the military accounts" page 15. this was the earliest most primitive version of rifles ever recorded. the use of gunpowder by attaching them to the side of arrows as small rockets and as explosives have been in use in China 2 centuries before that. during Ming, advance in this area had been slow, mainly bcoz there was no military rivalry, and perhaps also bcoz of the mentality, but by Qing times even if not guns, a technology which they now import from the western jesuits, the use of cannons were definitely significant. anyway, this is off topic.

on topic, if enlarging the muslim techgroup by incorporating the china techgroup will pose serioud problems, i think we could do away with switching techgroups altogether. afterall, switching China will destablise the techgroups too much however u do it. why not just give them some events that periodically boost their tech investments if they can choose to be expansionist? that would avoid all the complicated strings attached with fettering with techgroups.
 
Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
i dunno where u got that from, but i didnt say that China only was more advanced in those areas, i said the Far East was more advanced than the Middle East. i never said that China was most advanced in gunpowder specifically. in any case, China did use gunpowder for small rockets and cannons, in fact they invented all sorts of weapons that make use of the gunpowder and cannons had been in use at least as early as two centuries before the game starts. In "Jian Kang Zhi", it was recorded that the number of gunpowder weaponry stored in Jian Kang alone (modern Nanjing) during 1260-1264 was 63 754 pieces. of significance here is two of the many types of gunpowder weapons mentioned, one is the "iron cannon", the other is the "sharp fire gun". the "sharp fire gun" makes use of a bamboo barrel, inserting a bullet inside, and then use gunpowder to fire it. this was recorded in the classic "History of Sung" part 197 "the military accounts" page 15. this was the earliest most primitive version of rifles ever recorded. the use of gunpowder by attaching them to the side of arrows as small rockets and as explosives have been in use in China 2 centuries before that. during Ming, advance in this area had been slow, mainly bcoz there was no military rivalry, and perhaps also bcoz of the mentality, but by Qing times even if not guns, a technology which they now import from the western jesuits, the use of cannons were definitely significant. anyway, this is off topic.

on topic, if enlarging the muslim techgroup by incorporating the china techgroup will pose serioud problems, i think we could do away with switching techgroups altogether. afterall, switching China will destablise the techgroups too much however u do it. why not just give them some events that periodically boost their tech investments if they can choose to be expansionist? that would avoid all the complicated strings attached with fettering with techgroups.

This seems most reasonable considering the constraints fo the Tech group families and the negatives that the other options would incur. We need to keep the Tech Group families more balanced.

Late,
Jester
 
I'm not sure. If you get China to tech levels it can achieve in the muslim tech group while leaving it in the china group it also unbalances the tech groups, because China will provide monstrous neighbour bonuses to the china group.
 
Last edited:
I was thinking, how about boosting the Mughals? At least for their three "great" rulers? (Babur, Akbar, Aurungzib)
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I've done some testing on much of this. Will report tommorrow (want to get the numbers).

Not sure why Hungary should be latin until death of Corvinus. That's pretty early on, so it doesn't make that much difference, and if there is a problem with tech increasing their starting tech is a simpler solution.

As discussed (by Mueller) in this thread the orthodox tech group is very weak because it gets miserable neighbour bonuses. I tested with the EEP, which has oodles of muslim countries. providing neighbour bonuses that make it nearly as good as the orthodox tech group. Every country that is removed from the orthodox tech group hurts the neighbour bonuses for the entire group, and a big problem with the game is that the orthodox group is too freaking small. If it were up to me I'd keep Poland orthodox from the start as well, but it isn't.

What I'm looking at is moving the Ottomans into the orthodox tech group for a while before dropping them into muslim. This provides big boosts if it's timed right. I'm also putting all of North Africa (bar the Mamelukes for obvious reasons) in the orthodox group. Along with everyone else in Eastern Europe (Teutonic Knights, Duchy of Prussia, and revolters like Kazan, Crimea and Astrakhan. All of this ought to help out Russia quite a bit, by expanding the orthodox tech group and contracting the muslim one.

The North Africans did pretty well against Europeans in the 16th century (Djerba, Tunis, etc.), so that makes some sense.

Plus the chinese group could be helped by adding Benal and Vijayanagar. It's not a bad idea. In the EEP the china group is very small, but does OK because China provides good neighbour bonuses. If China goes muslim then everything gets bizarre, the China tech group stagnates and the muslims get powered up to where they are as good as orthodox.

edit: credited Mueller

I strongly agree with this. There is a large area onthe periphery of the advanced West which isn't quite as technologically sophisticated as the Western countries, but can keep close enough that they weren't colonizable by the Western countries till a very late date. It included North Africa, the Ottomans, the Hungarians, and the Poles as well as the Orthodox heartland. I don't know enough about Crimea or Astrakhan to agree/disagree on those, but Crimea did cause significant greif to her Catholic and Orthodox neighbors so it seems likely that Crimea should be included.

Alexandre
 
Originally posted by Arilou
I was thinking, how about boosting the Mughals? At least for their three "great" rulers? (Babur, Akbar, Aurungzib)

Yeah, they should have orthodox tech between 'Akbar`s religious tolerance' and 'Aurangzib`s religious intolerance'. They technology definetly wasn`t 'medieval' as someone said
 
Originally posted by Raczynski
Yeah, they should have orthodox tech between 'Akbar`s religious tolerance' and 'Aurangzib`s religious intolerance'. They technology definetly wasn`t 'medieval' as someone said

Definately not.
Wasn't the Battle of Panipat one of the first effective uses of field-artillery BTW.?
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I'm not sure. If you get China to tech levels it can achieve in the muslim tech group while leaving it in the china group it also unbalances the tech groups, because China will provide monstrous neighbour bonuses to muslims.
why would China provide neighbour bonuses to the muslims if it remains in the china techgroup? i thought neighbour bonuses are only for nations in the same techgroup.
 
why would China provide neighbour bonuses to the muslims if it remains in the china techgroup? i thought neighbour bonuses are only for nations in the same techgroup.

I think his post got a little mixed up. What I think he was saying is that China will unbalance tech whether its in Muslim or Chinese. I agree somewhat with this statement, but as neighbor bonuses have been weakened, it isn't as bad as before.
 
Sun Zi,

Sorry about that. What I meant was the following. You threw out the idea that instead of putting China in the muslim group is is given many tech bonus events over subsequent centuries - enough to put it at the tech levels it would have had in the muslim tech group. I don't want to dismiss this idea, but it will have the side effect of providing very big neighbour bonus' throughout the china tech group.

So that was basically a typo. I'm fixing it.


Originally posted by Raczynski
Yeah, they should have orthodox tech between 'Akbar`s religious tolerance' and 'Aurangzib`s religious intolerance'. They technology definetly wasn`t 'medieval' as someone said

tech group isn't about tech level. It's about rate of tech advance. Putting the Mughals in the orthodox tech group, especially if it's done briefly is rather hazardous. While in the orthodox group they will garner large neighbour bonuses, particularly if they are small, as they often are. (This assumes that things have been fixed so that orthodox group on average has a much higher tech level than the muslim. As of right now it doesn't always turn out that way in the EEP.) When they bounce back to the muslim group they will then provide all these bonuses to the muslims, particularly the small ones.

I'm not sure I even buy the historical argument. Under Babar the Mughals had pretty good tech (from what I can tell), but they don't seem to have advanced incredibly rapidly over the next century.

But test it. If it doesn't mess up everyone else's tech groups it's worth thinking about.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I'm not sure I even buy the historical argument. Under Babar the Mughals had pretty good tech (from what I can tell), but they don't seem to have advanced incredibly rapidly over the next century.

But test it. If it doesn't mess up everyone else's tech groups it's worth thinking about.

So maybe just extra investments in land, via events? Besides, Babur only settled for India and lower Afghanistan after he got his butt kicked various times by the Uzbeks.