Tartessia, Turdetania, and the Lost City of Tartessos

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Regaccio

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I recently had a fun time playing the as the Turdetani in the Imperium Universalis mod for EU4. If you don't know who they are (like I did until I looked them up), they were the successors of a relatively advanced people that inhabited pre-Roman Iberia, at the mouth of what is now called the Guadalquivir river. The Romans would later call this river the Baetis, but before that it, was known to them and the Greeks as the Tartessos, named after a great city by the same name which once stood at its terminus. Between two mouths of the river was a lagoon, and somewhere in that lagoon on an island existed the city of Tartessos.

Tartessos was the capital of a kingdom that existed since the mists of prehistory. Tartessos was said to be rich in metals, and the 4th century BC Greek historian Ephorus described "a very prosperous market called Tartessos, with much tin carried by river, as well as gold and copper from Celtic lands". Unlike many other societies of the Iberian peninsula, Tartessos was highly urbanized with many cities dotting the eponymous river valley.

During the later part of their history, they would come into contact with Phoenician (later, Punic) merchants which had an important influence on their culture. Much of the Tartessian economy relied on exporting silver to the Phoenician merchants, who would ship it back to Tyre and other Phoenician cities, where it would be used to pay off nearby empires who demanded silver as tribute, or for trade. Tartessos was so known for its silver that when Greek and Roman authors would tell stories its last king, they would call him "Argantonio", meaning "the silver man".

Like I said, though, the Tartessians had a "last" king. The kingdom would not last forever. The Tartessians were quite friendly with the Greeks, and Argantonio was even said to have invited Greek refugees from the Persian conquest of the Ionian city-states to set up colonies in his kingdom. The Carthaginians - now the primary center of Phoenician civilization since the fall of Tyre - saw Greek merchants as competition. And because the mineral wealth of the Tartessians was so vital to Mediterranean trade, they didn't want the Greeks moving in on that. This boiled over into the Battle of Alalia, a naval engagement which resulted in the Greeks being cut off from their route to Iberia.

Location_Battle-of-Alalia.PNG


Then, around this time... Tartessos disappears from the historical record. The capital city of Tartessos has never even been found. How could an urbanized civilization disappear so quickly without leaving behind a trace? Some theorize that the Carthaginians simply occupied Tartessos, now isolated without allies. Still, the river on which the city is said to have stood only has one mouth today, the eastern one. The area is rife with marshland and sandbars and has shifted its flow several times. The city itself was thought to have been lost to flooding, and it's been speculated that the myth of a rich, faraway Atlantic city being flooded to destruction inspired the myth of Atlantis.

At any rate, this all happens hundreds of years before the start date of Imperator: Rome. At that point, Tartessos is likely a thing of the past, Punic merchants dominate the local trade, Celts have invaded, and various "sucessor" peoples inhabit the region. Tartessian language (an unclassified language with its own written script) is still used sporadically in the area, by peoples such as the Turdetani. The situation at that time looked something like this:

924px-Iberia_300BC-en.svg.png


So this brings me to the recent screenshot of the Imperator map, which shows the Iberian Peninsula, now colored in with oodles of tribes and colonies.

D19quB3.png


I noticed two tags on the map, "Tartessia" and "Turdetania" (underlined in red), around where Tartessos used to be. "Turdulia" is also the north representing the Turduli. There are also Carthaginian footholds in the south, and also a small purple tag that probably represents Gadir, a major Punic merchant colony. However there's also a very small tag that looks like a city-state, between Tartessia and Turdetania. My guess as for where the Baetis/Tartessos/Guadalquivir river would be puts this city-state at the mouth of the river.

What is this city? Could this be some kind of Tartessos successor, a Punic colony, or something else?

Or maybe...

THE LOST CITY OF ATLANTIS?

The people demand answers! You can't hide the truth for long, PDS!
 

Brynjar

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The purple does indeed seem to be Gadir (Cadiz). Could it be Menestheus (Now called Puerto de Santa Maria)? Strabo gives a description of the area book III, chapter I:

Next to these is Mellaria,33 where they make salted provisions. After this the city and river34 of Belo. Here the merchandise and salted provisions for Tingis in Maurusia are principally shipped. There was a city named Zelis35 near to Tingis, but the Romans transferred it to the opposite coast [of Spain], and having placed there in addition some of the inhabitants of Tingis, and sent over also some of their own people, they then gave to the city the name of Julia Joza.36 Beyond this is Gadeira,37 an island separated from Turdetania by a narrow strait, and distant from Calpe about 750 stadia, or, as others say, 800. This island has nothing to distinguish it above others, but owing to the boldness of its people in their expeditions by sea, and their friendship with the Ro- mans, has attained to that pitch of good fortune, that although situated at the farthest extremities of the earth, it possesses a greater celebrity than any other island. But we will describe it when we come to speak of the other islands. [9]

Next after [Cadiz] is the port of Menestheus,38 and the estuary near to Asta and Nebrissa.39 These estuaries are valleys filled by the sea during its flood-tides, up which you may sail into the interior, and to the cities built on them, in the same way as you sail up a river. Immediately after are the two outlets of the Guadalquiver.40 The island embraced by these mouths has a coast of a hundred stadia, or rather more according to others. Hereabouts is the Oracle of Menestheus,41 and the tower of Cæpio,42 built upon a rock and washed on all sides by the sea. This is an admirable work, resembling the Pharos, and constructed for the safety of vessels. For the mud carried out by the river forms shallows, and sunken rocks are also scattered before it, so that a beacon was greatly needed. Thence sailing up the river is the city of Ebura43 and the temple of Phosphorus,44 which they call Lux Dubia.45 You then pass up the other estuaries; and after these the river Guadiana, which has also two mouths,46 up either of which you may sail. Lastly, beyond is the Sacred Promontory,47 distant from Gadeira48 less than 2000 stadia. Some say that from the Sacred Promontory to the mouth of the Guadiana there are 60 miles; thence to the mouth of the Guadalquiver 100; and from this latter place to Gadeira 70.
Source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=3
That's an easy to navigate version of Strabo.

Edit: Re-copied the citation to avoid dozens of links to modern names. If you want them, just go to the source.
 
Last edited:

Regaccio

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The purple does indeed seem to be Gadir (Cadiz). Could it be Menestheus (Now called Puerto del Santa Maria)? Strabo gives a description of the area in book III:

Next to these is Mellaria,33 where they make salted provisions. After this the city and river34 of Belo. Here the merchandise and salted provisions for Tingis in Maurusia are principally shipped. There was a city named Zelis35 near to Tingis, but the Romans transferred it to the opposite coast [of Spain], and having placed there in addition some of the inhabitants of Tingis, and sent over also some of their own people, they then gave to the city the name of Julia Joza.36 Beyond this is Gadeira,37 an island separated from Turdetania by a narrow strait, and distant from Calpe about 750 stadia, or, as others say, 800. This island has nothing to distinguish it above others, but owing to the boldness of its people in their expeditions by sea, and their friendship with the Ro- mans, has attained to that pitch of good fortune, that although situated at the farthest extremities of the earth, it possesses a greater celebrity than any other island. But we will describe it when we come to speak of the other islands. [9]

Next after [Cadiz] is the port of Menestheus,38 and the estuary near to Asta and Nebrissa.39 These estuaries are valleys filled by the sea during its flood-tides, up which you may sail into the interior, and to the cities built on them, in the same way as you sail up a river. Immediately after are the two outlets of the Guadalquiver.40 The island embraced by these mouths has a coast of a hundred stadia, or rather more according to others. Hereabouts is the Oracle of Menestheus,41 and the tower of Cæpio,42 built upon a rock and washed on all sides by the sea. This is an admirable work, resembling the Pharos, and constructed for the safety of vessels. For the mud carried out by the river forms shallows, and sunken rocks are also scattered before it, so that a beacon was greatly needed. Thence sailing up the river is the city of Ebura43 and the temple of Phosphorus,44 which they call Lux Dubia.45 You then pass up the other estuaries; and after these the river Guadiana, which has also two mouths,46 up either of which you may sail. Lastly, beyond is the Sacred Promontory,47 distant from Gadeira48 less than 2000 stadia. Some say that from the Sacred Promontory to the mouth of the Guadiana there are 60 miles; thence to the mouth of the Guadalquiver 100; and from this latter place to Gadeira 70.
Source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=3
That's an easy to navigate version of Strabo.

Edit: Re-copied the citation to avoid dozens of links to modern names. If you want them, just go to the source.

Seems like it could be Menestheus. I don't know how they're going to squeeze the word "Menestheus" into such a tiny province, but... Yeah, that seems likely.
 

alvaro

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The purple does indeed seem to be Gadir (Cadiz). Could it be Menestheus (Now called Puerto de Santa Maria)? Strabo gives a description of the area book III, chapter I:

Seems a bit off the real place to me in the I:R map. Maybe Hasta Regia ?

Regarding the location of Tartessos' capital, I have read all sort of suppositions going from Barbate/Baelo/Sierra de la plata up to the Guadiana river
It seems though that after the fall of Tyre (to Babylon, not Alexander) a conflict started between Gadir and Tartessos (supposedly related to the arrival of some "exiled" people from Phocaea in Asia minor after a failed revolt against Persia). It seems premature to say that Carthage had any involvement as a leading power at this time because it wasnt until after the first punic war that Haninbal´s family started to focus in the region. Tartessos did not recover from this war and apparently it was absorved by some other barbarians so I am not sure how accurate woud be to have it in I:R although in the timeframe of IU:EU4 it certainly fits well (circa 500BC)

i am no expert so feel free to debate any word i said :)
 

Brynjar

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Seems a bit off the real place to me in the I:R map. Maybe Hasta Regia ?
Placement of clustered city states can probably be a bit off because of size limitations. Gadir is described as an island (with a successful city on it) and controlling very limited part of the mainland near it. The island which Gadir actually controlled is probably far too small to represent practically in game.

From what I have been able to find on (H)Asta Regia it was a Turdetanian settlement. It appears that the wikipedia page on Tartessos has Menestheus is marked on the map as a Greek colony. I think a greek colony makes more sense as a city state.

854px-Tartessos.svg.png
 
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alvaro

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that map looks much older than the game start date, Brynjar (regarding the lacus ligustinus, I mean) by the time strabo wrote is safer to supose that guadalquivir had 2 branches to the sea surrounded by mostly swamps
If I had to choose 2 cities only on this area (and 2 are good enough for the map i think) I would still go for asta regia and gadir just by their impact in roman times. port menetheus was not a big settlement and it only grew after L.C. Balbus moved part of Gades' harbour activity to the Guadalete mouth.

by the way if you are interested on the subject I can recommend you the novels Tartessos and La Sibila de Colobona (the sibyl of Col.) by Jesus Maeso de la Torre. I know this man has been translated into English (and other languages) but I couldnt find any other editions than Spanish. just in case you need to feed the hype :D