Tanks - National differences or just different icon?

[Melackholy]

Hi, some thoughts of mine.

I've been think about how tanks will be represented in the new HOI and have some questions.

1) Will there be differences between tanks of nations that historically had different mindsets on tank utilization?
e.g.; German vs UK vs Italian tanks:
- Cruiser tanks was something between a light and a medium tank, with low armor, high speed, but British tanks where to complex and thus
had low reliability.
- Infantry tanks of the UK had thick armor but low speed.
- The German Panzer 3 or 4's where medium tanks with good speed, normal guns for the time, good armor and reasonably good reliability.
- Italian tanks where poor in most regards.

- France had a similar tank composition to the UK.
- A light tank of France was not equal to that of Germany because og different utilization and doctrine.

- Diversity may be give by giving plus and minus points to a Standard set of points to a give tank type from a tank period.
e.g.; - Panzer 3 = Gun: normal, Armor: normal, Engine: normal, Reliability: normal
- Matilda 2 = Gun: normal, Armor: Plus 1 or 2, Engine: Minus 1 or 2, Reliability: Normal
- Cruiser Mk 3/4 = Gun: normal, Armor: Minus 1 or 2, Engine: Plus 1 or 2, Reliability: Minus
- M11/39 (actually a light tank) = Gun: normal, Armor: minus, Engine: minus, Reliability: minus

2) Experience gained from combat. Different or equal between nations?
- Larger nations should have slower experience gain from combat than minor nations (eg. USA, UK, USSR, Germany, France)
- Minor nations normal or slightly faster experience gain, like Italy, Romania, Turkey, Poland etc.
- Smaller nations having faster experience gain, like Norway, Finland, Hungary etc.

* The Germans thought that the armor they possessed before the invasion of Russia was sufficient for the job, only to discover they had inferior armor
compared with the new Russian armor.

3) Can you continue producing the tanks of a conquered nation?
- Germany continued to produce the Pz.38 (t) after occupying Czechoslovakia until 1942, and then re-purposing the chassis.
- This might be a good option for smaller countries that may obtain tank production by using a conquered nations designs.

4) Tankette's- will they be present?
- Low armor, high speed (good for recon), light armament (may upgrade upto 20mm - AT version), but can't be converted to AA/SPArt
- Poland, Czechoslovakia and others had mid to high numbers of them.

5) Possible to buy/give production license to allied nations?
- Italian armored units had poor quality Italian armor, what if they were allowed to produce for example the Panzer 3 or 4?


These are some of the thought I have had about Armored units in HOI IV to diversify the game and add some flavor.

What are your thoughts and ideas?

 

[Le_Carabinier]

1) The variant system should be able to adress this issue. All, say, 1941-level Medieum Tanks begin as equals, but variants can create a great deal of difference between them. You can chose to focus on armor or firepower rather than making a balanced model.

2) The devs said it would be different.

3) We don't know that yet.

4) We don't know either, but I hope. Nothing precise has been said about light armored vehicles (half-tracks, armored cars and tankettes).

5) This was in HoI III, so I think it will be in HoI IV too. It has been confirmed that in HoI IV, you can give tanks to your allies.

 

[aruon]

true german tanks should yell auf wiedersehen when they get blown up.:rofl:

 

[ringhloth]

Units should have their abilities modified by doctrine. Germany didn't have fast, light tanks because Germans are afraid of heavy armor. They had fast, light tanks because their doctrine called for it.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Units should have their abilities modified by doctrine. Germany didn't have fast, light tanks because Germans are afraid of heavy armor. They had fast, light tanks because their doctrine called for it.

Actually they had fast, light tanks becouse their tanks were obsolete and thus were lighter than intended. When they entered into service, they were medium tanks.
If you compare them to "infantry tanks" tough, then yeah, they are light and fast

 

[13Patrick]

true german tanks should yell auf wiedersehen when they get blown up.:rofl:

True German tanks must use beer as fuel.

 

[Kovax]

I would hate to see countries be saddled with hard-coded bonuses and penalties, although they could have their AI skewed to favor one aspect over another. Differing doctrines and research priorities could lead them to develop or improve specific aspects before others, on average, so the UK would tend to lean toward faster light and medium tanks, at the expense of other areas (armor, reliability, etc.). Italy wouldn't produce "inferior" tanks because of doctrines or priorities, but because they simply lack the resources, manufacturing capabilities, and research funding to mass-produce anything better; if their situation improves, they should begin to produce better armor. As long as it's "situational", rather than having those countries stuck with a permanent "nerf", I'm happy with it.

 

[ringhloth]

Actually [rabble rabble rabble]

Okay. The decisions made by the Germans because they are in the situation they are in is still encapsulated by what the game calls doctrine, not being German.

 

[Melackholy]

But German medium tanks in the early years where something in between a cavalry and infantry tank, due to differences in doctrine.

- Two tanks of similar class (Light/medium/heavy or Infantry/cavalry tanks) where not equal, due to the time put into the design, use of new vs known technology,
refinement after development and intended usage.

- The Somua S35 (1935) - was an excellent tank, but suffered not only from the doctrines used. The one-man turret and poor reliability like other French tanks, but had
good armor and gun.

My thoughts are that you should get a "realistic" presentation of that tank (e.g the Somua), and what you do later is up to you. If you decide to put experience upgrades into increasing reliability etc. that is up to you.
It should be possible to research improvements on current tanks to increase its baseline stats.

 

[mattyh1995]

I would hate to see countries be saddled with hard-coded bonuses and penalties, although they could have their AI skewed to favor one aspect over another. Differing doctrines and research priorities could lead them to develop or improve specific aspects before others, on average, so the UK would tend to lean toward faster light and medium tanks, at the expense of other areas (armor, reliability, etc.). Italy wouldn't produce "inferior" tanks because of doctrines or priorities, but because they simply lack the resources, manufacturing capabilities, and research funding to mass-produce anything better; if their situation improves, they should begin to produce better armor. As long as it's "situational", rather than having those countries stuck with a permanent "nerf", I'm happy with it.

They've said that countries will be able to change the direction they take, but obviously with penalties to other areas if they don't have the capacity to support multiple branches or while they play catch up in that area. All these penalties would be relative to the starting techs and doctrines of that country in 1936.

For example, France could make the change to mass producing smaller and lighter tanks with the Blitzkrieg style doctrines, but it would be hard to do so and waste a lot of time meaning they'd probably still be behind Germany in that regard.

Although I disagree with the current tech system, which based on the screenshots (I know they're alpha so I know they can change), will limit nations to what they planned/produced rather than you making your own models (Which would be an absolutely fantastic feature).

 

[Melackholy]

Experience gain could be increased when meeting superior forces and decreased when meeting inferior forces.

If you start with a minor/small nation but become larger and move into the majors you experience gain could slow down.

 

[Denkt]

Only variants will be the difference between the tanks of different nations however nations will also get bonuses due to other things such as doctrimes.

Experience gain is based on how many % of your army is in battle, but a large nation that have same % in battle as a smal nation will likely gain experience faster.

 

[PanH]

Although I disagree with the current tech system, which based on the screenshots (I know they're alpha so I know they can change), will limit nations to what they planned/produced rather than you making your own models (Which would be an absolutely fantastic feature).

Not really. You get the base tech tanks with the historical names, but you can do whatever variant you want of it. So, you might produce a Sherman that's completely differnt than in OTL.

 

[Melackholy]

Will be fun to see what HOI IV game play etc. will look like.

Though I have always asked my self what would have happened if Germany, Italy, Japan and the others within the axis had shared production blueprints ets. to produce the best possible equipment.

How would the fighting in North Africa been if the Italians didn't use crap Italian tanks etc., same for the British in regard to their tanks, the Cromwell featuring 90 degree frontal armor, small interior space etc. though tank crews had advised them to produce more spacious tanks like the American tanks after the failure of their earlier cruiser tank designs.

 

[GermanPower]

The base game going to be like that, but I bet you the modding community will totally change what the basis are for each nation, so the design for each nation will be different. Hopefully balanced.