Tanks - how did they develop so quickly between the two world wars?

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Kaarle XII

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Don't know about that either. I was inside a tank once (Leopard 2). I wouldn't know what to do to load, aim and fire the gun.

Really simple operations all three of them. At least aiming and firing could be figured out by pretty much anyone without help quickly. Whether one would actually hit anything is a different matter, as then you'd have to be able to use the ballistics controls. The loading of the gun isn't exactly rocket science either, and an experienced loader can do it in 3-4 seconds. Even when the tank is moving at high speed.
 
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StephenT

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The WWI tanks were developed with no previous experience, and were essentially designed in part according to marginally applicable Naval traditions, until field experience showed that practical applications didn't call for "land battleships". By the end of the war, with a pool of real combat experience as well as trail and error (lots of the latter) to draw from, the early "giant eraser" designs of British tanks, as well as the crude "moving pillbox" German designs, were already obsolete.
It's important to realise that those early WW1 tanks were, for their time period, right at the cutting edge of technology. It wasn't just a case of having the idea, then slapping together pre-existing components. Virtually everything - the tracks, the suspension, the engine, the gear system, the fuel tank design - had to be designed almost completely from scratch. Existing technology simply couldn't cope with a vehicle so heavy, requiring so much power, to drive it over rough and muddy ground while people were shooting at it.

As a couple of people have already mentioned, the British heavy tanks of WW1 weren't that shape because they "didn't know any better". In fact, the very first British prototype tank, Lincoln Machine No.1, was designed with tracks underneath and a turret on top, exactly like the tanks we're familiar with today. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a picture of it online apart from this one:

640px-No1_Lincoln_Machine_with_lengthened_Bullock_tracks_and_Creeping_Grip_tractor_suspension.jpg


Hope you're impressed by the state-of-the-art camouflage technology deployed to hide the tank from any lurking German spies. :)

However, that design was not very efficient for the specific task the tank would be required to perform - that is, attacking over No-Man's Land and crossing German trenches. It was too top heavy, and got bogged down. It was decided that the tracks would need to go all the way around the vehicle, rather than underneath it with the body sitting on top of them. That in turn meant that the guns would have to be side-mounted in sponsons rather than being on top in a turret. In other words, the lozenge shape of British WW1 tanks was a successful design intended for a specific purpose, which it performed well at - while more conventional WW1 tanks like the French St Chamond performed poorly, getting bogged down and stuck in the mud when they tried to traverse anything except level ground.

Once trench warfare ended in summer 1918 and armies went back to open-field campaigning, the faster but less mobile tanks like the Renault FT-17 or the Whippet A became more useful than the heavy tanks that were slow, but could cross almost any battlefield terrain. And here's the thing: after 1918, most armies thought that it was time to get back to 'proper soldiering'. They thought that the trench warfare of WW1 was an aberration, caused by certain specific circumstances; and that future wars would be more mobile. As such, light and fast tanks would be all the army needed - it also helped that such tanks were a lot less expensive, which made them attractive to the cash-starved governments of the 20s and early 30s.


The "naval traditions" you mentioned weren't really a big deal; more of a historical curiosity. In Britain it was Winston Churchill who was the senior man in government who first decided that tanks would be a good idea, and gave his backing to the military officers and engineers who came to him with the plans to build them. But Churchill was head of the Royal Navy, and the money he gave to the project came out of the naval budget. In addition, the guns used in the first tanks were surplus Navy cannons rather than Army artillery, and the armour plate was also out of the Navy's stores. Some of the terminology used also reflects the tank's naval origins - tanks have hatches and decks, not doors and floors. However, this is all surface detail; the tank was designed specifically for the battlefields of Flanders, not out of some theoretical concept of a "land ship".


The encounters in the Spanish Civil War allowed the (indirect) participants to further hone their designs and operational doctrines, while the UK still clung to its separation of "infantry tanks" and "cavalry tanks", and France parceled out most of its armor in direct support of small infantry formations.
The Germans also "clung" to a separation of infantry and cavalry tanks, although in their case they tended to use vehicles with fixed guns instead of turrets in the infantry support role, and called them 'assault artillery' rather than 'tanks'. But that was as much to do with rivalry between different branches of the service as any difference in doctrine. The Panzer units saw themselves as an elite who should control all tanks, rather than let mere infantry divisions have any of their own. As such, the infantry had to come up with a dodge, and acquire armoured vehicles which officially were "not tanks" so they wouldn't be confiscated by the Panzerwaffe.

Tank design, like many other things, means constantly trying to balance two factors that are in conflict with each other. A specialised vehicle designed for one particular job will always be more effective at that task than a general-purpose design - but it will be useless if called on to do something it wasn't designed for. A general purpose tank is the opposite. It will be less effective at supporting a breakthrough than an infantry tank, and less effective at exploiting that breakthrough than a cavalry tank. It will, however, be able to do both jobs reasonably effectively; a specialised tank can only do one or the other. To use game terms, an infantry tank might have a rating of 10 at "assault" and 2 at "breakthrough", a cavalry tank the opposite; while a general purpose medium tank has a 6 in both. If you have enough points for 100 tanks, do you buy a mix of infantry and cavalry tanks, or just get 100 medium tanks?
 

gagenater

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Inside a Sherman Turret
DBZ_0575.jpg


Inside a Tiger Turret
tigint.jpg



Inside a pre war Russian T26
T26_parola_7.jpg


They really are tractor like aren't they?
 

gagenater

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It must have been increadibly loud inside them when the guns went off.

If I understand correctly the radios/intercoms used in tanks of that era (and maybe still today?) are designed to prevent outside noises from getting through the headphones as much as for letting you hear the voices over the radio.
 

gagenater

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As a couple of people have already mentioned, the British heavy tanks of WW1 weren't that shape because they "didn't know any better". In fact, the very first British prototype tank, Lincoln Machine No.1, was designed with tracks underneath and a turret on top, exactly like the tanks we're familiar with today. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a picture of it online apart from this one:

640px-No1_Lincoln_Machine_with_lengthened_Bullock_tracks_and_Creeping_Grip_tractor_suspension.jpg


Hope you're impressed by the state-of-the-art camouflage technology deployed to hide the tank from any lurking German spies. :)

?

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/BritishHeavyTanks.html

GB-LittleWillie-2.jpg


This is the 2nd prototype 'little willie' which wasa reconstructed version of the first one after they had learned some basic things they needed to change. You can see the round plate bolted over the turret position. As this was only a prototype it did not in fact get to the stage where the turret was fitted. It was valuable for getting the mechanical running gear sorted out, but the 'rhomboid' shape of later tanks was found to work better before they got to the stage of fitting the turret out.

GB-LittleWillie-3.jpg


Little Willie in cross country trials. Note the trailing steering wheels. One of the things found as a result of the trials with Little Willie was that steering by changing track speeds was pretty efficient, and that the trailing rear steering wheels weren't critically necessary. They DID allow the tanks to steer better while driving fast - that way the tracks would continue to roll at 'top speed' and the wheels would do all the steering. The first few production tanks had them too. However actual battlefield experience revealed that there wasn't much need to steer at top speed (which was in fact almost never achieved in combat conditions) and that the trailing rear wheels had a tendancy to get stuck in mud, tangle in barbed wire and other debris, and did not in fact help to steer the tank very much in soft ground (where all the fighting was) or at low speeds, which were the important ones under combat conditions. As a result the wheels were removed from early production tanks, and not installed on later ones.
 
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Kaarle XII

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If I understand correctly the radios/intercoms used in tanks of that era (and maybe still today?) are designed to prevent outside noises from getting through the headphones as much as for letting you hear the voices over the radio.

Correct, being inside a Leo 2 isn't *that* noisy. That is, when you're wearing the headset.

I recall reading that the Soviets, at least early in the war, didn't actually have intercoms in their tanks. Is that really correct?
 

Ming

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Do you have any examples or information on non electronic gun stabilization systems? The Sherman I know about, but where there any other projects? Post war, I guess.

If anyone else was interested in this, here is what I found:

The Sherman, Stuart, and Comet tanks had a gyroscopic/hydro/mechanical vertical axis stabilizer system. This was near useless for hitting targets while moving, but it was a big help reacquiring a target after a move if the tankers were adequately trained. I haven't found any details on whether or not US tank destroyers had a similar system. It seems as complicated as all get out, going from this 1944 article in Popular Mechanics.



The Centurion Mark 3 tank had the first mechanical horizontal/vertical stabilization system in 1948. (Gun was stabilized vertically, turret stabilized horizontally) It might actually have been able to hit something while moving, if this British propaganda piece is to be believed.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d5d_1302449828

One of versions of the M48 Patton tank had a two axis mechanical stabilizer that didn't quite work out, it was ripped out and replaced with an electric one in the next version.

The T-54/55 gun system was vertically stabilized in 1953, and horizontally stabilized in 55. It apparently had the most complete mechanical gun stabilization system by 1956. It still wasn't that great at hitting anything while moving due to the lack of a fire control computer.


Additionally, I read some claims that the pre-war soviet T-26 tank had a vertical stabilization system for its gun sights, and that the gun was somehow slaved to the sight. I can't find any details about how this worked. Anybody know any more?
 

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Thanks Ming - I was looking for something like this. I was at the U.S. national WWII museum in New Orleans a few weeks ago, and actually saw the horizontal stabilizer 'black box' from a Sherman there. I am pretty sure the U.S. had it - in fact IIRC the Sherman was the first 'production' tank to feature it as standard equipment. I was looking for photos of the mechanism itself, but this blown up line drawing is actually better.
 

StephenT

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Additionally, I read some claims that the pre-war soviet T-26 tank had a vertical stabilization system for its gun sights, and that the gun was somehow slaved to the sight. I can't find any details about how this worked. Anybody know any more?
The T-26 didn't have a crew intercom system (to bring up a question asked earler in the thread) so it seems unlikely they had a gun stabilisation system. Are you sure it wasn't just that the gunsight was slaved to the barrel so the gunner, looking through it, would see what the gun was pointing at?

That sounds like quite an obvious thing, but remember that the T-26 was originally designed in the 1920s. (It was a copy of the British Vickers Medium E tank.)
 

StephenT

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This is an interesting thread. Please tell us more. :)
I have some notes I made on British interwar tank development: kind of a general summary.

Medium Tanks

During the 1920s Britain remained at the forefront of tank design, with the Vickers Mk I and II medium tank. This was comparatively fast (24 kph) and well armed with a 47mm gun in a rotating turret along with multiple machine-guns. Its main disadvantage was the thin armour, at just 6.5mm only capable of resisting rifle-calibre bullets. It weighed 11.7 tons. 168 were produced in total, making this by far the most common medium tank in service anywhere in the world in the 1920s.

vickers-medium-mark-i.jpg

Vickers Mk I tank, entered service in 1923

At the end of the 1920s Vickers also produced a smaller and cheaper medium tank, officially called the Vickers Medium E but more generally known as the "6-Ton Tank". This was designed for export, and many were sold abroad although the British Army did not acquire any itself. It came in two versions, one with a 47mm gun and coaxial machine gun, the other with two turrets side-by-side, each mounting a single machine gun. Vickers themselves produced 153 Medium E Tanks - but the Soviet Union copied the design, renamed it the T-26, and produced no less than 12,000 of them in the years 1931-41. The Polish 7TP tank was also a copy of the Medium E, but unlike the Soviets, the Poles did pay royalties to Vickers for using the design!

Vickers_E.jpg

Vickers Medium E, the "6-Ton Tank"; twin-turret version

T-26.JPG

Soviet T-26, copied from the Medium E


Tankettes

Another development of the 1920s was the tankette, produced on a private basis by the Carden-Loyd Tractor company and then by Vickers. Very small (less than 2 tons) with a 2-man crew, fast at 40 kph but armed with only a single forward-firing machine gun, they were designed for reconnaissance and infantry support. The British Army acquired about 300 of them in the late 1920s, but then decided their combat performance was inadequate; and the design was abandoned in British service. Many other countries, however, saw the Carden-Loyd tankette as a cheap and cheerful way to acquire an armoured force without going to the expense of building 'proper' tanks, and Vickers exported large numbers of these vehicles - to Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, Portugal, Greece, Bolivia, Chile, Japan, China and Siam.

Carden-Loyd_Mk.VI_Str%C3%A4ngn%C3%A4s_12.08.11_(3a).JPG

A two-man Carden-Loyd Tankette Mark VI


New Doctrines

In the early 1930s Britain developed its tank doctrine further, and decided that three main types of tank were necessary. Note that it is clear they were still thinking in terms of WW1, and assuming battles would consist of assaults against heavily-defended enemy trench lines, followed by a breakthrough phase into open countryside.

Infantry tank - designed to accompany foot soldiers across No-Man's Land and break through the enemy trenches. Speed and range were irrelevant since an infantry tank would only have to move at human walking pace; but it would need to have exceptionally heavy armour since it would be the focus of every enemy gun in range. Its weapons were primarily intended for use against enemy infantry and bunkers.

Cruiser tank - designed for the exploitation role once enemy resistance had been broken by the main assault. Speed and reliability were vital; armour was less important since these tanks would be expected to bypass dug-in enemy positions, not attack them head-on. Weapons were designed for use against enemy tanks as well as soft targets.

Light tank - small, cheap and fast. Designed for use in the scouting and reconnaissance role, and not intended to stand and fight against an organised enemy.

(Note: Guderian's initial plans for the Wehrmacht's tank force were remarkably similar. He was forced to simplify his scheme because Nazi Germany lacked the capacity to produce so many different models of tank, and so instead focussed on multi-purpose designs. Ironically, this proved to be a better choice in practice.)

At first, the Vickers company produced tanks in all three categories. However, from 1937 the British government decided on a deliberate policy of expanding the country's tank production capability instead of relying on a single supplier. Contracts were placed with many other manufacturers, in order to give them experience in tank production that could then be scaled up in the event war came.

Unfortunately this policy - while well-intentioned and seeming like a good idea on paper - was a failure. The quantities of tanks the other companies were asked to supply - 40 here, 50 there - were too small to make it cost-effective for them to set up a dedicated production line. Instead, they temporarily switched over their existing manufacturing plant to make the tanks - which was slow and inefficient compared to what a purpose-made factory could have achieved. The result was that when WW2 did break out, British tank production was split between multiple small-scale and inefficient manufacturers with little specialist expertise. The comparatively dire state of British tank design during the war years can be blamed in large part to this policy decision. (By 1945 Britain was finally able to produce tanks like the Comet and Centurion which were a match for anything other countries had in their armouries - but that was too late to have much effect on the outcome of the war.)

When the Second World War broke out, Britain's tank force was divided between the following models:

Infantry Tanks

Infantry Tank Mk I A11 (Matilda I) - 10 tons, 13 kph, front armour 60 mm, 1 MG.
Infantry Tank Mk II A12 (Matilda II) - 24 tons, 25 kph, front armour 78 mm. 40mm gun + 1 MG.

GB-Infantry-Matilda1-Mark1-A11E1.jpg
infantry-tank-mk2-matilda-ii.jpg

Matilda I and Matilda II infantry tanks

139 of the Mk I tank were in service at the outbreak of war, and saw combat in France in 1940. However, their pitifully slow speed and lack of armament meant they were largely ineffective, though their armour was a nasty shock to the Germans since it was impervious to their standard anti-tank weapons.

The Mk II tank was designed to overcome the shortcomings of the Mk I. However, delays to production mean that none were actually in service at the outbreak of war, although a total of 3000 were produced in 1940-43 and saw combat in France and North Africa. The Matilda proved an effective tank at first, its armour being superior to most other tanks in service in the first half of the war; but its slow speed, unreliability and comparatively weak armament made it obsolete by 1942.

In addition, the Mk III Valentine tank was designed privately by Vickers - using existing components from their other tank models - and offered to the War Office on a commercial basis. It was not yet in production at the time war broke out. The Valentine was not quite as good in combat as the Matilda, but was smaller, much more reliable, and far cheaper and easier to produce. As a result it became the British tank manufactured in the largest numbers during WW2, with 6900 being made in the UK and another 1400 in Canada. Many of these were sent to the Soviet Union as lend-lease; by Soviet standards it was only a light tank, but it was valued for its reliability.


Cruiser Tanks

Cruiser Mk I A9 - 11 tons, 42 kph, front armour 14mm, 40mm gun + 3 MGs.
Cruiser Mk II A10 - 12 tons, 27 kph, front armour 30mm, 40mm gun + 1 MG (Mark IIA has 2 MGs).
Cruiser Mk III A13 - 14 tons, 50 kph, front armour 14mm, 40mm gun + 1 MG.

Mk1CruiserTank.jpg
300px-CruiserMk2.jpg
cruiser-mk-iii-a13-01.jpg

Cruiser Tanks Mk I, II and III

The Mk I was designed by Vickers in 1937, entering service early in 1939. 125 were built. However its thin armour was quickly seen as a shortcoming, and the Mk II was hastily designed as a replacement, cutting out two machine guns in order to save weight for thicker armour. Even so, the Mk II's speed of 27 kph was barely faster than the infantry tank. 175 were produced.

The Mk III was designed by Nuffield, one of the new companies brought into tank production. It used the revolutionary American Christie suspension , which allowed for significantly faster speed (at the price of being more bulky). 65 were built, but then it was decided to increase the armour along the same lines as the Mk I/Mk II upgrade. The Mk IV tank was the more heavily-armoured version (30mm frontal armour) , but none had yet entered service when war began.

Light Tanks

Light Tank Mk VI - 5 tons, 58 kph, front armour 14mm, 2 MGs.

Vickers_Light_Tank_Mark_VI.jpg

Vickers Mark VI light tank, by far the most common tank in British service in 1939-40.

The latest in a series of Vickers designs ultimately based on the Carden-Loyd tankette, but with a radio and a rotating turret. The British army had a thousand of these at the outbreak of war, compared to fewer than 200 heavier tanks. However, during the Battle of France they were forced into front-line combat instead of the scouting and patrolling duties they were intended for, and suffered extremely heavy losses in consequence. This somewhat discredited the concept of the light tank in British eyes, and the Mark VI was not replaced (apart from a limited number of light tanks produced in WW2 for specialised roles such as glider landings).


And just as a contrast, here's the Centurion, which was just entering service in 1945 as the Germans surrendered. The first six Centurions were delivered to the British army in Germany before the end of the war, but they didn't actually see combat then (not until Korea).

Centurion_cfb_borden_1.JPG


52 tons, 35 kph, front armour 150mm, 76.2mm gun (17-pounder*) + MG. (Later upgraded to 105mm gun).

* Able to penetrate 208 mm of armour at 457 m. The German Tiger II's frontal armour was 185 mm.
 
Last edited:

Ming

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The T-26 didn't have a crew intercom system (to bring up a question asked earler in the thread) so it seems unlikely they had a gun stabilisation system. Are you sure it wasn't just that the gunsight was slaved to the barrel so the gunner, looking through it, would see what the gun was pointing at?

That sounds like quite an obvious thing, but remember that the T-26 was originally designed in the 1920s. (It was a copy of the British Vickers Medium E tank.)


You're right that the gun slaved to the sight seems way too advanced to show up in a pre war tank and then not have any descendant systems.
I wasn't able to find any more information about the system, I'm hoping someone (who reads russian, presumably) might know more.

If I had to guess it might possibly be like WW1 vintage Naval fire control systems where the trigger just doesn't let the gun fire unless it is lined up with what the scope is pointing at. (And in this case the scope is stabilized and the gun isn't stabilized at all.)



By the way, the T34/85 got a vertical stabilization system after the war ended, although I don't know if any of the ones in Korea had the system.
 

Sleight of Hand

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Very interesting stuff, Stephen. Thanks for taking the time to compile it. :)

Could you provide similar notes and photos for mid and late-war tanks, such as the Cromwell and Churchill?
 

nwinther

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Really simple operations all three of them. At least aiming and firing could be figured out by pretty much anyone without help quickly. Whether one would actually hit anything is a different matter, as then you'd have to be able to use the ballistics controls. The loading of the gun isn't exactly rocket science either, and an experienced loader can do it in 3-4 seconds. Even when the tank is moving at high speed.

I don't doubt that once you are introduced to it, you can manage the basic functions. But we were talking about "morons" that could do it.
I know how to drive a car, and maybe there's similarities to driving a tank (although surely there are differences too. But aiming a gun - where to start? What does what button do? Loading the gun - do I have to push while twisting the lever? and so on and so forth.

Was in a rented mercedes a year ago - found the parking brake (usually engaged with the hand, this was engaged with the foot) fast enough, took me 15 minutes with the manual just to find the release!
 

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I don't doubt that once you are introduced to it, you can manage the basic functions. But we were talking about "morons" that could do it.
I know how to drive a car, and maybe there's similarities to driving a tank (although surely there are differences too. But aiming a gun - where to start? What does what button do? Loading the gun - do I have to push while twisting the lever? and so on and so forth.

Leo 2 has a steering wheel and automatic gears, so yes, pretty much everyone would be able to drive it immediately. We even had one guy in the company who had never driven anything, so his first driving experience was with a 55-ton MBT! :D

The turret has two controlling mechanisms, and the main one is really intuitive. Here's a picture: http://www.afvsim.com/images/Leopard-2-Gunners-Control-Handle.jpg. You have to push one of the discs on the sides to be able to turn the turret, the small white button is for taking into account the speed of the target (advance?), the buttons at the top are for the laser, and the triggers are at the top, on the other side of the handles. There's also a backup for operating the turret, two different handles for manually raising and turning the turret. That takes some time and effort though..