Tank destroyers versus tanks.

[Orlunu]

How does one use the stug like the germans did IRL? Put it in infantry divisions for a kind of space marine esque division?

Well, the TD doesn't represent assault guns perfectly, but in terms of in-game representation... kinda.

The assault gun battalions were in theory intended to be allocated to infantry divisions on a one-to-one basis as organic support, as you describe. In reality, there were never nearly enough StuG units, and they were usually reserved as a Corps-level asset, and then they started using them as stop-gaps to fill up the Panzer Divisions to strength, and then.... Yeah, they never really got close to the theoretical organisation IRL, but the theoretical organisation would've been along the lines of including a MTD battalion in you main infantry template.

Edit: as noted above, this will indeed cause you very high StuG losses if you do it in game because the game doesn't deal well with very low equipment numbers in a division (and the TD battallion doesn't use many TDs). Using a smaller proportion of your inf divisions with a two-battalion commitment instead of one each but for more should in theory be much stronger for a few reasons, and is historically justifiable.

 

[Spelaren]

Well, the TD doesn't represent assault guns perfectly, but in terms of in-game representation... kinda.

The assault gun battalions were in theory intended to be allocated to infantry divisions on a one-to-one basis as organic support, as you describe. In reality, there were never nearly enough StuG units, and they were usually reserved as a Corps-level asset, and then they started using them as stop-gaps to fill up the Panzer Divisions to strength, and then.... Yeah, they never really got close to the theoretical organisation IRL, but the theoretical organisation would've been along the lines of including a MTD battalion in you main infantry template.

Edit: as noted above, this will indeed cause you very high StuG losses if you do it in game because the game doesn't deal well with very low equipment numbers in a division (and the TD battallion doesn't use many TDs). Using a smaller proportion of your inf divisions with a two-battalion commitment instead of one each but for more should in theory be much stronger for a few reasons, and is historically justifiable.

Wasn't the Stug more of a self propelled artillery gun?

 

[Orlunu]

Wasn't the Stug more of a self propelled artillery gun?

It was an assault gun, yes. More of a self propelled artillery gun than what?

 

[Zauberelefant]

Probably more a self propelled artillery gun than a tank destroyer?
That train left when they decided to upgrade the gun to an adaptation of the Pak 40, which is a dedicated anti armour gun.
The term SPG gets used for tank destroyers, armoured artillery and assault guns alike irl, so it's a bit confusing.
Hoi4 doesn't have assault guns as a separate unit, so they get wrapped into tank destroyers.
SPG are armoured artillery.
What the game doesn't have is light, fast tank destroyers like the M18 and M36.
But vehicles like StuG, SU85/122, german Jagdpanzers, these can be argued to basically have the same Combat capabilities and roles.

 

[Orlunu]

Probably more a self propelled artillery gun than a tank destroyer?
That train left when they decided to upgrade the gun to an adaptation of the Pak 40, which is a dedicated anti armour gun.
The term SPG gets used for tank destroyers, armoured artillery and assault guns alike irl, so it's a bit confusing.
Hoi4 doesn't have assault guns as a separate unit, so they get wrapped into tank destroyers.
SPG are armoured artillery.
What the game doesn't have is light, fast tank destroyers like the M18 and M36.
But vehicles like StuG, SU85/122, german Jagdpanzers, these can be argued to basically have the same Combat capabilities and roles.

Ah, yes, well that is the case. TD itself is a relatively vague term, and assault guns sit at a place where they are generally both SPGs and TDs. I believe in the Soviet tech you see them scattered across both variant types.

Didn't say before, but was inclined to - this is an area where the lack of the "tank designer" really shows. Your Panzerjäger types, your Jagdpanzer types, and your GMC types were really rather different types of vehicles despite all being "TDs". Never mind your Axis rocket-TDs or any of the kinkiness like that.

 

[Challenge]

How does one use the stug like the germans did IRL? Put it in infantry divisions for a kind of space marine esque division?

They were used in Panzer Grenadier regiments. German doctrine put infantry into Tank formations to support the tanks, but Panzer Grenadiers were often used as a mobile assault formation following the tanks (made easier after development of halftracks, assault guns, and tank destroyers).

As United States I usually put a couple or three into Mechanized formations to boost the HA, Armor and Piercing stats. You can put them in Tank Divisions, but the added Piercing and HA boost is pretty much offset by the drop in SA, and Breakthrough goes out the window.

 

[noobermenschen]

Also you will suffer huge amount of attrition cause of the single battalion attrition mechanic.

Wait what? What what what is this new mechanic?

 

[Zauberelefant]

Wait what? What what what is this new mechanic?

That's your old trusty HP mechanic, I suppose? Like, small HP units get extremely high losses (but in larger formations, that's diluted).

 

[Eisscrat]

Wait what? What what what is this new mechanic?

Every item in a division gets base attrition.
So if u have 100 rifles u loose 1
If u have 24 TDs und also loose 1

Its insane.
And working as intended as it gets never fixed.

Has Equipment Attrition from Training be Increased?

Tried to play first game with 1.9.1 beta since 1.7.1 and trained the USA army. The lost equipment especially support equipment and artillery is through the roof. Some numbers: the 24 infantry divsions start with low equipment: infantry equipment...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Orlunu]

iirc it was looked into and is essentially just a rounding issue

"Working as intended" is overstating it, there are plenty of known bugs that just never get fixed.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Keep fingers crossed for land war rework in 1.11!

 

[noobermenschen]

That's your old trusty HP mechanic, I suppose? Like, small HP units get extremely high losses (but in larger formations, that's diluted).

Every item in a division gets base attrition.
So if u have 100 rifles u loose 1
If u have 24 TDs und also loose 1

Its insane.
And working as intended as it gets never fixed.

Has Equipment Attrition from Training be Increased?

Tried to play first game with 1.9.1 beta since 1.7.1 and trained the USA army. The lost equipment especially support equipment and artillery is through the roof. Some numbers: the 24 infantry divsions start with low equipment: infantry equipment...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Ah, okay. I thought the Devs had slipped in some new attrition penalty for Space Marines. Cheers!