Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns

[unmerged(63189)]

Unfortunate as it has already been that front line artillery pieces have been lumped into one category; that of tank destroyers, with the current iteration in the works I think it's high time that the game distinguish between Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns. Each brigade has a specific role in combat, one to destroy enemy tanks from mobile to semi-static armored platforms and the other as armored mobile direct-fire support for infantry.

Now adding one more brigade is justifiable given the current modular set-up that we will be having in production, and historically viable, with the Axis and Comitern fielding battalions of Assault guns in their campaigns, and many would agree that specialized anti-infantry armor units are to be desired. I won't presume to suggest what statistics it might have, but it can be reckoned that it consumes less fuel, has a high soft and middling to low hard attack, and costs a bit cheaper than regular armor.

So, what are your thoughts on the matter?

high soft attack, low hard attack, armoured, cheaper than tanks ... sounds like spart to me. if they made assault guns it would have same statistics as brigade that already exists, so whats the point...?
and there is no such thing as long range guns and short range guns in hoi to be represented.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

high soft attack, low hard attack, armoured, cheaper than tanks ... sounds like spart to me. if they made assault guns it would have same statistics as brigade that already exists, so whats the point...?
and there is no such thing as long range guns and short range guns in hoi to be represented.

SP-ART in the game is a support unit and doesn't add to your frontage. AG will be units in the 'line', who take up 'frontage'.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

Generally it should work like:
SP Art works like artillery. TD is better in Hard attack and AG in soft but still have good hard.

 

[unmerged(47937)]

assault guns should be in the game, just to give people something to crack fortresses with, as in HoI2 now, busting a fortress is mainly all about numbers and a fortress buster leader.

Assault guns were historically used to assault heavily dug-in troops in a more cost-efficient way (I'm thinking sturmtiger gun here, but the allies had these kinds of weapons too)

Other things not mentioned in this thread are soviet katjusha's and german wurfrahmen equipped halftracks, but of these are self propelled rocket artillery which gave very good results as in lowering enemy morale, but were inefficient because of inaccuracy when looking at the ability to cause casualties...

 

[unmerged(94130)]

Other things not mentioned in this thread are soviet katjusha's and german wurfrahmen equipped halftracks, but of these are self propelled rocket artillery which gave very good results as in lowering enemy morale, but were inefficient because of inaccuracy when looking at the ability to cause casualties...

Rocket launcher brigade and Self propeller rocket launcher are useless...
Just one brigade of rocket launcher (every rocket launcher during war were self propelled or towed by trucks...so they use fuel...).

A first canon gun brigade, would can be infantry tank brigade...
After all these 2 vehicles have the same mission, support the infantry attack.
Or an assault gun brigade would can be mixed with an assault engineer brigade, more efficient in urban combat and against fortress.

 

[henryjai]

the Stugs destroyed more tanks than any other type of tanks. early stugs are designed only to support infantry though.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

IIRC Stugs where mobile units that where assigned at corpse lvl (and under artillery command) and moved into action where and when neccessary. German troops always have a morale boost when they arrived. Infantry men belived that with the use of em they can do abything. Psychological effect + effectivness of em give a great impact on battle.

 

[unmerged(94130)]

the Stugs destroyed more tanks than any other type of tanks. early stugs are designed only to support infantry though.

Stug destroyed so many tanks, because Germans needed anti tank fire power so they equiped the Stug with a long 75mm gun.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

Its wiki and its short but it shows AG importance in game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgeschütz

 

[Ciryandor]

So given the ample evidence of how valuable the Assault Gun is to some military formations of the time, and that other countries had similar projects that only did not become highly implementable because of doctrinal differences, can it be argued that they are relevant enough to be in the game?

 

[Alex_brunius]

Rocket launcher brigade and Self propeller rocket launcher are useless...
Just one brigade of rocket launcher (every rocket launcher during war were self propelled or towed by trucks...so they use fuel...).

Nebelwerfer Weighted only 540kg and could be towed by horses or even men if the roads were good.

Self propelled is alot more mobile then towed. Towed might be towed by trucks or tanks that go off to other duties once the artillery is in place.

 

[unmerged(94130)]

NebelwerferWeighted only 540kg and could be towed by horses or even men if the roads were good.

Self propelled is alot more mobile then towed. Towed might be towed by trucks or tanks that go off to other duties once the artillery is in place.

But it would be easier to remove rocket launcher brigade, which does consume fuel, than replacing super heavy tank brigade by an assault gun bridage...

23 brigades it's not enough...

 

[Alex_brunius]

But it would be easier to remove rocket launcher brigade, which does consume fuel, than replacing super heavy tank brigade by an assault gun bridage...

23 brigades it's not enough...

Who said rocket launcher brigades will consume fuel in HoI3?
Who said we are limited to 23 brigades in HoI3?

 

[unmerged(94130)]

Who said rocket launcher brigades will consume fuel in HoI3?

It seems logic...

Who said we are limited to 23 brigades in HoI3?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383552

According to this dev diary, there is 24, and not 23 brigades.
It's an alpha screenshoot but more brigades would be surprising.

 

[Alex_brunius]

It seems logic...

No it doesnt. You can't state things for facts when you are just assuming things yourself based on what you think seems logical :S

According to this dev diary, there is 24, and not 23 brigades. It's an alpha screenshoot but more brigades would be surprising.

According to that dev diary the alfa version of a game in a state where even the major resources are chaning currently had 24 brigades. It would be very surprising if the number fo brigades DIDNT change until release.

And how can you know its a hard number that cannot be modded?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

And how can you know its a hard number that cannot be modded?

We don't, but if you look at the screen then you see that there is no scroll-bar. So currently it doesn't look like you can add brigades.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I wouldn't think the absense of a scrollbar in a fresh and new interface they want to show us mean much.

Im not saying it will be one or the other way, Im just against when people state their own assumtions as known facts.

If any kind of "assault gun" is needed as a further brigade its that of the early infantry support versions of StuG IMO. Cheaper than tanks, mostly soft attack as artillery, but uses frontage.

Perhaps another way is to just give early versions of SPAT a little more soft attack and have them later slide over to AT.

 

[unmerged(94130)]

Im not saying it will be one or the other way, Im just against when people state their own assumtions as known facts.

It's a hypothesis...
According to what is writen in this dev diary, there is 24 brigades...
But it's an alpha...

I would happy be to see 30, 40 brigades...
Everybody would be happy and the customization system would be better.

 

[Alex_brunius]

According to what is writen in this dev diary, there is 24 brigades...

No... Can you show me where its WRITTEN that there will be 24 brigades in there?

There is a preview picture that happens to show that 24 brigades. That same alfa screenshot shows a negative amount of dissent and super heavy tanks that consume zero fuel. That screenshot also has the IC and manpower values switched and artillery moving faster than tanks. I could go on...

Those are things that we know are wrong. The number of brigades could change without the screenshot even beeing wrong, just out of date.

My point: The brigades in that screenshot doesn't even have the right values, how can you expect the list to be complete?

 

[griswolds686]

Not exactly on topic with AG and TD's but since they were brought up, are rockets useless in HOI? To me, they seem just like artillery and makes me wonder why you would research them when arty does the same job. Am I missing something?