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Ciryandor

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Unfortunate as it has already been that front line artillery pieces have been lumped into one category; that of tank destroyers, with the current iteration in the works I think it's high time that the game distinguish between Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns. Each brigade has a specific role in combat, one to destroy enemy tanks from mobile to semi-static armored platforms and the other as armored mobile direct-fire support for infantry.

Now adding one more brigade is justifiable given the current modular set-up that we will be having in production, and historically viable, with the Axis and Comitern fielding battalions of Assault guns in their campaigns, and many would agree that specialized anti-infantry armor units are to be desired. I won't presume to suggest what statistics it might have, but it can be reckoned that it consumes less fuel, has a high soft and middling to low hard attack, and costs a bit cheaper than regular armor.

So, what are your thoughts on the matter?
 

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I was going to reply to this in the other thread, but this seems cleaner.

First, there is a clear distinction between different types of 'guns on tank chassis which are not a tank':
Self-propelled artlllery (SP-ART): lightly armoured, indirect fire, large caliber (example: Priest, don't think the Germans had something functionally compatible). Its function is the same as artillery, but with a smaller mobility drawback. It's also less vulnerable.
Assault Guns: basically turretless tanks: armoured, direct-fire. The loss of turret function is compensated by lower profile. (example: StGIII, Jagdpanther, Hetzer, SU122, ISU152; Western Allies, no equivalent.) Function: the same as tanks, but perhaps more infantry support. More often found in non-panzer formations than tanks.
Tank Destroyer (TD): Direct-fire, primary function against enemy armour. (example: jagdpanther (yes, which also is an assault gun), M10) Can be of different shape, but is generally very effective against tanks, not so much against infantry. Always high muzzle velocity AT gun.
Self-Propelled AT (SP-AT): I don't know if this can be separated from TD.
Seflf-Propelled AA: yes, we didn't mention this one yet. Examples are the Wirbelwind and the M16

The problem is that an assault gun is defined by its shape and capabilities, while a TD is defined by its function. On a micro-scale, too.

I wonder how useful the distinctions are in the larger scale of HoI. Perhaps it is more useful to lump them together, but differently, by macro-function. After all, that is what we need to look at, the functional effect on brigade level. I don't believe there were brigade-sized SP-ART formations, or brigade-sized TD-formations.

I'll get back to this later.
 

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Yeah like what is supposed to represent the German 88mm AA guns that were also used very effectively as AT guns? Should be good for both.

It's really hard to say what Paradox should include considering the vast variety of guns used in the war. Definitely need to make an assault guns category. And also drastically change the statistics of everything.
 

TheLand

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I wonder how useful the distinctions are in the larger scale of HoI. Perhaps it is more useful to lump them together, but differently, by macro-function. After all, that is what we need to look at, the functional effect on brigade level. I don't believe there were brigade-sized SP-ART formations, or brigade-sized TD-formations.

I think you're correct about this. Batallion-sized, for sure. Brigade-sized; never. That could make the choice of the brigade as the building block quite constricting. (Arguably worse than in HOI2 when one could rationalise a TD 'brigade' as beign a battalion-szed unit...)
 

TheLand

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I
Assault Guns: basically turretless tanks: armoured, direct-fire. The loss of turret function is compensated by lower profile. (example: StGIII, Jagdpanther, Hetzer, SU122, ISU152; Western Allies, no equivalent.)

*Presumably* the Western Allies had enough tank density that this was less of a problem for them.

Also, I suspect doctrine mattered. British/American troops were rarely expected to carry out the assault without waiting for their regimental/division artillery to be brought up, so there was very little need for mobile unit which would provide direct support fire.
 

oddman

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Great, so they did. Yes, these are functionally clearly SP-ART.
Now, the question is, how were they used, functionally, at division-level and below?

I think you're correct about this. Batallion-sized, for sure. Brigade-sized; never. That could make the choice of the brigade as the building block quite constricting. (Arguably worse than in HOI2 when one could rationalise a TD 'brigade' as beign a battalion-szed unit...)

Well, I guess one needs to look at the functional effects of a brigade, and in what way different sorts of armoured vehicles fulfill their roles in a division.
Looking at the following, things become a bit more complex:
*Presumably* the Western Allies had enough tank density that this was less of a problem for them.

Also, I suspect doctrine mattered. British/American troops were rarely expected to carry out the assault without waiting for their regimental/division artillery to be brought up, so there was very little need for mobile unit which would provide direct support fire.

Exactly. So, doctrine influences the way you use your armoured vehicles on a divisional level. Therefore, doctrine also influences the available choices in 'brigade' (I will use the term brigade for the building blocks of a division. Call them what you like, regiment or whatever --- it's the building-block concept that matters, and that concept is not being discussed).
So, the need for mobile fire support, as evidently born from mobility-based doctrines as opposed to firepower-based ones, creates the need for assault guns. Hence the Soviet and Nazi development of those. Now, how would that translate in a brigade-model?
One could choose to differentiate infantry brigade types. For example, a 'heavy infantry' or 'assault gun supported infantry' with intrinsic assault gun elements. It would consume oil, be as mobile as infantry, have a decent hard attack (assault guns were notoriously effective at ambushing armour), boosted soft attack and a hardness rating. This way, we directly capture the functional use of assault guns, dependent on doctrine.
On the other hand, we could abstract it to divisional level, thereby varying the amount of support. For example: a division with two infantry brigades, and one 'armoured support' brigade, consisting of assault guns and perhaps other specialised armoured infantry support vehicles (mortar halftracks, flame tanks). Varying the amount of support brigades changes the amount of support-per-unit.
Varying the doctrine could change the usefulness / effectiveness of different brigades. For instance, a mobility-based doctrine would benefit greatly from direct fire support brigades, while a firepower-based one would benefit more from different types of (self-propelled?) artillery brigades.
Inventing different vehicles would also benefit / enable the different functional types of brigades. For instance, improving assault guns would improve the armoured infantry support, as would specialised support halftracks (but in a different way, say, by improving hard attack).
Still, brigades would have to be built functionally. Concerning armoured vehicles, including tanks, I suggest the following:
  • Armoured Infantry Support (tank based) [this would be like early Allied armies. Infantry speed, relatively low cost. Think Matildas (infantry-speed tanks) and armoured cars. Emphasis on soft attack.]
  • Armoured Infantry Support (assault gun based) [like later German and Soviet units: assault guns, specialised infantry support vehicles. Emphasis on soft attack.]
  • Armoured Infantry Support (TD based) [like the above, but with emphasis on antitank capability. M10, antitank assault guns.]
  • Armoured Infantry Support (AA based) [like the above, but with emphasis on antiair capability. 88s, M16s, Wirbelwinds.]
    (As an aside, there should also be non-armoured, truck-and-car / halftrack based infantry support brigades, granting soft attack, AT, supply and perhaps mobility bonuses, but not hardness. Perhaps in combination with a 'motorize' brigade attachment.)
  • Tank Brigade [medium-tank based basic division component]
  • Mobile Support (TD based) [basically armoured infantry support, but fully motorised and geared to mobile support. TD-like vehicles,and various support - boosts hard attack]
  • Mobile Support (AA based) [as above, but emphasis on AA]
  • Mobile Artillery [it would be a more mobile variant of ordinary artillery, suited for mobile units.]
So, researching vehicles would improve the relevant brigades. SP-ART would improve most of the above, as armoured infantry support would also include some ART. Mobile Artillery would benefit greatly, the rest a little. SP-AA? Big boost to very relevant brigades, small boost to less relevant ones.

Doctrines would also make different brigades more or less effective.

In short, functional brigade typing.

(edited for readability)
 

TheLand

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  • Armoured Infantry Support (tank based) [this would be like early Allied armies. Infantry speed, relatively low cost. Think Matildas (infantry-speed tanks) and armoured cars. Emphasis on soft attack.]
  • Armoured Infantry Support (assault gun based) [like later German and Soviet units: assault guns, specialised infantry support vehicles. Emphasis on soft attack.]
  • Armoured Infantry Support (TD based) [like the above, but with emphasis on antitank capability. M10, antitank assault guns.]
  • Armoured Infantry Support (AA based) [like the above, but with emphasis on antiair capability. 88s, M16s, Wirbelwinds.]
    (As an aside, there should also be non-armoured, truck-and-car / halftrack based infantry support brigades, granting soft attack, AT, supply and perhaps mobility bonuses, but not hardness. Perhaps in combination with a 'motorize' brigade attachment.)
  • Tank Brigade [medium-tank based basic division component]
  • Mobile Support (TD based) [basically armoured infantry support, but fully motorised and geared to mobile support. TD-like vehicles,and various support - boosts hard attack]
  • Mobile Support (AA based) [as above, but emphasis on AA]
  • Mobile Artillery [it would be a more mobile variant of ordinary artillery, suited for mobile units.]

I think this is sensible. However Paradox seem to be thinking along the lines of "SPART", "SPAA", "Armoured Car", "Tank destroyer" and making brigades interchangeable between divisions...
 

Veldmaarschalk

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I wonder how useful the distinctions are in the larger scale of HoI. Perhaps it is more useful to lump them together, but differently, by macro-function. After all, that is what we need to look at, the functional effect on brigade level. I don't believe there were brigade-sized SP-ART formations, or brigade-sized TD-formations.

I'll get back to this later.

TheLand said:
I think you're correct about this. Batallion-sized, for sure. Brigade-sized; never. That could make the choice of the brigade as the building block quite constricting. (Arguably worse than in HOI2 when one could rationalise a TD 'brigade' as beign a battalion-szed unit...)

Brigade is a generic term in HoI3, it can be anything from a 'battalion' to a 'brigade'. Just take a look at the division-building screen, some brigades have 3,000 men and some only 1,000 men

And there were SP-AT brigades, like f.e. the German 104th Panzerjagd Brigade, which consisted of 6 battalions of about 3 companies each (2 SP-AT companies and 1 Mech Inf company).
 

Lusitan

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I was going to reply to this in the other thread, but this seems cleaner.

First, there is a clear distinction between different types of 'guns on tank chassis which are not a tank':
Self-propelled artlllery (SP-ART): lightly armoured, indirect fire, large caliber (example: Priest, don't think the Germans had something functionally compatible). Its function is the same as artillery, but with a smaller mobility drawback. It's also less vulnerable.
Assault Guns: basically turretless tanks: armoured, direct-fire. The loss of turret function is compensated by lower profile. (example: StGIII, Jagdpanther, Hetzer, SU122, ISU152; Western Allies, no equivalent.) Function: the same as tanks, but perhaps more infantry support. More often found in non-panzer formations than tanks.
Tank Destroyer (TD): Direct-fire, primary function against enemy armour. (example: jagdpanther (yes, which also is an assault gun), M10) Can be of different shape, but is generally very effective against tanks, not so much against infantry. Always high muzzle velocity AT gun.
Self-Propelled AT (SP-AT): I don't know if this can be separated from TD.
Seflf-Propelled AA: yes, we didn't mention this one yet. Examples are the Wirbelwind and the M16. (...)

I see some problems there:

jagdpanther and Hetzer are not assault guns.

and there's no need for another type of brigade, because both SP-AT's and SP-ART's brigades in HOI have the necessary and logical stats in them.
 

TheLand

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Brigade is a generic term in HoI3, it can be anything from a 'battalion' to a 'brigade'. Just take a look at the division-building screen, some brigades have 3,000 men and some only 1,000 men

I suppose you're right - but the limit on brigades per division is what, 4? So 3 infantry brigades plus divisional artillery 'brigade' plus assault guns 'brigade' -entirely plausible - would be over the limit.

Unless of course one takes the assault guns 'brigade' as being a regular divisional artillery complement PLUS the assault guns.

I think the devs will have come up with a workable solution to this problem, I'd just like to know what it is ;)
 

aaaaburnHOI

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I was going to reply to this in the other thread, but this seems cleaner.
First, there is a clear distinction between different types of 'guns on tank chassis which are not a tank':
Self-propelled artlllery (SP-ART): lightly armoured, indirect fire, large caliber (example: Priest, don't think the Germans had something functionally compatible). Its function is the same as artillery, but with a smaller mobility drawback. It's also less vulnerable.
Assault Guns: basically turretless tanks: armoured, direct-fire. The loss of turret function is compensated by lower profile. (example: StGIII, Jagdpanther, Hetzer, SU122, ISU152; Western Allies, no equivalent.) Function: the same as tanks, but perhaps more infantry support. More often found in non-panzer formations than tanks.
Tank Destroyer (TD): Direct-fire, primary function against enemy armour. (example: jagdpanther (yes, which also is an assault gun), M10) Can be of different shape, but is generally very effective against tanks, not so much against infantry. Always high muzzle velocity AT gun.
Self-Propelled AT (SP-AT): I don't know if this can be separated from TD.
Seflf-Propelled AA: yes, we didn't mention this one yet. Examples are the Wirbelwind and the M16

The only difference that HOI does not separate is the assault gun. The rest of your example already fall under the current HOI units. Except TD which can be lumped together as SP-AT. Im pretty much fine with assault guns being lumped in with SP-ART. Mainly because only Germany and the USSR widely used assault guns. Actually, the HOI system pretty much covers the important portions of larger caliber equipment.
 

The Starfox

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Given enough combat values to play with theres enough room for brigaes of each type of unit. There are examples of brigades created for each unit.

The brigades could be associted as follows:

SP ART= High Soft attack, low Hard attack, low toughness values. Cheap to make.

SP AT= Low soft attack, High Hard attack, low toughness values. Cheap to make.

Assult guns= Medium soft attack, medium Hard attack, medium toughness. Fairly expensive to make.

Tank destroyers= medium soft attack, High Hard attack, high toughness values. Expensive to make.

Given the new division creation system, I could see a panzer division made up of a Mot Inf+SP-ART+Tank+tank destroyer briages. Or Moterized infantry disions made up of 2 Mot Inf+SP-ART+Assualt Guns(or tank destroyers later in the war).
 

torenico

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Also, the Early stug served as Assault Gun, providing support for the infrantry.

Later modifications and a more bigger cannon drived the Stug to the Tank Destroyer/Assault Gun role.

EDIT*

Also, the Germans developed a Very Few, but powerfull

SturmTigers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmtiger
 

Piggy

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I suppose you're right - but the limit on brigades per division is what, 4? So 3 infantry brigades plus divisional artillery 'brigade' plus assault guns 'brigade' -entirely plausible - would be over the limit.

Max 5...

"In conception the system is very simple, you can create a division of between 1 and 4 brigades, rising to 5 if you have right doctrine research"

From DD#7: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383552
 

unmerged(94130)

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The Sherman 105 and the M-8 Howtizer can be seen as assault gun.

They keep their turret, but their canon are used for launching explosive munitions.
 

Alexander Seil

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I suppose you're right - but the limit on brigades per division is what, 4? So 3 infantry brigades plus divisional artillery 'brigade' plus assault guns 'brigade' -entirely plausible - would be over the limit.

Unless of course one takes the assault guns 'brigade' as being a regular divisional artillery complement PLUS the assault guns.

I think the devs will have come up with a workable solution to this problem, I'd just like to know what it is ;)

Actually the limit is 5, not 4, which makes your scheme entirely possible. Obviously, you need to develop the doctrines first, but I doubt that kind of attachment overloading was very common in peacetime standing armies.

I'm not sure whether a division really requires 3 infantry brigades to approximate real-life divisions, either. It seems that 2 INF + 1 ART should do the job just fine. Those brigades don't have the same number of men in 'em. The infantry would comprise 6,000, and artillery and the requisite support personnel only 1,000.
 

TheLand

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Actually the limit is 5, not 4, which makes your scheme entirely possible. Obviously, you need to develop the doctrines first, but I doubt that kind of attachment overloading was very common in peacetime standing armies.

I'm not sure whether a division really requires 3 infantry brigades to approximate real-life divisions, either. It seems that 2 INF + 1 ART should do the job just fine. Those brigades don't have the same number of men in 'em. The infantry would comprise 6,000, and artillery and the requisite support personnel only 1,000.

Of course that would be reserved for one of those Italian binary divisions or a 1944 Volksgrenadier Division ;)

If it's 5, then I'm happy.
 

Ciryandor

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Well, to contribute to the viability of the discussion, lots of troop formations from 1943 onward (especially in their OOBs) had brigade sized assault gun groups instead of tanks.