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Steeperman

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You always use what you have, my point is that TDs and Assault Guns are not good at this, compared to regular tanks, if you have 40 M10s or M18s and the enemy has 3 panthers and you don't have a tank company lying around, obviously you use what you have then. If you are short on tanks of course you can try to fill in gaps with stugs as well. But even according to the FM for tank destroyers, in the offense Tank destroyers like the M10 should perform secondary missions like infantry support, while actual tanks do the main fighting against enemy tanks.

Why would you do this? When i have my Shermans equipped mainly with the short 75mm cannon, that is not powerful enough to harm a Panther, why wouldn't i use my TDs for the task? Because, thats what they are made for: destroying tanks.
Obviously, ´when you consider the Germans, you do not necessarily Need TDs to destroy tanks, cause the alliey had mostly not very heavy tanks and german tanks like the Panther and Panzer IV were often equipped with high velocity 75 mm guns. Their heavy tanks even with even more deadly guns.
But not in case of many of the US or free French forces, who mostly had standart Shermans, with low velocity guns and heavy counterparts, like the Panther. What means: they needed TDs on the frontline, to destroy tanks.
 

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The Thing is, 75mm Equipped Shermans were considered to be doing just fine in 1944, at least by the Americans.

The US had been understandably hesitant about introducing 76mm Shermans, given their weaker HE rounds. Given that Shermans literally spent 90% of their time engaging targets that should be considered soft (trenches, AT guns, infantry ect), this is understandable. Coupled with the fact that most of the armour they encountered was still perfectly engagable at realistic combat ranges (Pz4s still made up the bulk of the tanks used in Normandy by Panzer Divisions) Then it is pretty obvious as to why the 76mm Shermans took a while to come into widespread service, when they could of been easily introduced far earlier (prototypes were ready in 1942 IRRC)

What's more, Panthers did pretty poorly in Normandy, owing to the terrain and rather weak side armour for a tank of that size and profile. Frequently authors such as Zaloga or Buckely have paraphrased German Tank commanders preferring the Pz4 in the Bocage environment because of its much more practical profile, as well as not suffering glaring design or reliability faults. (Having a turret that could not traverse over an incline due to a weak turret motor is just one of many of the glaring faults of the Panther) Furthermore its been pretty much proven by this point that the panther had significant problems in its layout, with the gunner not having an observation periscope being one of the more glaring faults. This would explain why Sherman's often managed to spot and engage targets sooner than their German equivalents, as they had by comparison much better situational awareness through the addition of more periscopes.

It was also more readily apparent that the Panthers strong front armour wasn't exactly that great in the Bocage, given that over 60% of recorded hits on vehicles in the Normandy campaign were struck on the side. Given the Panthers shoddy ammunition storage placement and tendency to catch fire rather easily coupled with paper thin side armour, they didn't do too well after taking hits from the side.

Now, this isn't to say the 76mm Sherman was bad, in fact it was a very useful upgrade which extended the service life of the Sherman considerably, and gave it even more punching power against the occasional threat that might of actually been a problem. Given how rare the Tiger 1 was for the Americans to encounter however, one could argue that the point is moot. (especially given that 75mm Shermans could easily penetrate the front of the Tiger within 300 yards with the APC ammunition, let alone what the 76 could do without HVAP)

Its somewhat fortunate that the British were the ones facing the majority of the armour in Normandy, which justified the usage of the Firefly in widespread service, despite its faults. Certainly, the track record of the German AFV's was not because of their design or any qualitative advantage, but merely due to the fact they were on the defensive, often in concealed positions and thus able to achieve the all important first shot. Buckley does make the very important point that German armour encountered the same difficulties that the Allies did on the offensive, not to mention taking similar loss ratios, as demonstrated during many of the armoured counter attacks the Germans made, which were defeated rather easily by the combination of infantry, AT guns, Allied tanks and artillery support. Again, the point is that attacking with tanks is always going to be costly, especially when facing a competent opponent, regardless of what sort of tanks you use.

The overall point is I think, is that Allied armour has been underestimated in its capabilities for some time, which is largely a result of a number of factors, one of which is the notion that German armour was always qualitatively superior, a notion that is utterly false. Sherman's were one of the safest vehicles to be in, especially once stricter methods of ammunition storage and wet ammo bins were installed. Much of the Sherman bashing you see on TV or in video games is entirely unjustified and categorically false.

Sherman's should do just fine against the German tanks, let alone the more specialised vehicles such as the Firefly being considered.
 

77Hawk77

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Why would you do this? When i have my Shermans equipped mainly with the short 75mm cannon, that is not powerful enough to harm a Panther, why wouldn't i use my TDs for the task? Because, thats what they are made for: destroying tanks.
Obviously, ´when you consider the Germans, you do not necessarily Need TDs to destroy tanks, cause the alliey had mostly not very heavy tanks and german tanks like the Panther and Panzer IV were often equipped with high velocity 75 mm guns. Their heavy tanks even with even more deadly guns.
But not in case of many of the US or free French forces, who mostly had standart Shermans, with low velocity guns and heavy counterparts, like the Panther. What means: they needed TDs on the frontline, to destroy tanks.

Because it was powerful enough to harm a panther. That's the point.
 

77Hawk77

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In frontal combat, too?

Of course.
But if you mean will the 75mm penetrate the hull front of a Panther on it's first shot then no, unless the panther has a bad quality plate. But, a platoon of Shermans all hitting a panther will reduce the integrity of the armour. Not to mention possibly destroy it's optics and barrel.

Let me show you what i mean. This is from the eastern front, this tiger was hit on the thickest spot by 85mm guns on T-34s. While they did not penetrate due to the unfortunate area of impact, the reduced the integrity of the armour of the Tiger, the second hit shattered part of the tiger armour, and the first hit most likely caused spalling right in the drivers chest even if it didn't penetrate. So with just 2 hits from a non penetrating gun, the armour shattered.

wnBoFag.jpg


This wasn't just an issue with the tiger either. This happened a lot. The western allied also did some tests on the panther when they captured one, they tried 90mm 76mm and 17 pounder against a panther. The 17 pounder penetrated and went through the front hull plate. But look at what happened when several non penetrating rounds landed around the machine gun.

DhbbzAj.jpg
 

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In a 1954 US Ballistic Research Laboratory study of the 3rd and 4th armored divisions during the august-December 1944 time period, Shermans killed 70 panthers for the loss of 20 shermans in direct tank vs. tank engagements.

according to the study, the panther had a 10% advantage over the attacking Sherman when the Panther defended, but the Sherman was 8.4 times more effective then attacking Panthers when the Sherman defended. Overall, the Sherman was 3.6 times as effective as the Panther in all engagements.


Tank combat has always basically been who fires first, and if you are attacking or defending. The disparity was also affected by some of the design flaws (as others have mentioned), like the weak final drive and turret motor, making it very hard to respond to ambushing shermans.
 

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In a 1954 US Ballistic Research Laboratory study of the 3rd and 4th armored divisions during the august-December 1944 time period, Shermans killed 70 panthers for the loss of 20 shermans in direct tank vs. tank engagements.

according to the study, the panther had a 10% advantage over the attacking Sherman when the Panther defended, but the Sherman was 8.4 times more effective then attacking Panthers when the Sherman defended. Overall, the Sherman was 3.6 times as effective as the Panther in all engagements.


Tank combat has always basically been who fires first, and if you are attacking or defending. The disparity was also affected by some of the design flaws (as others have mentioned), like the weak final drive and turret motor, making it very hard to respond to ambushing shermans.

This is pretty much spot on
 

Steeperman

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Of course.
But if you mean will the 75mm penetrate the hull front of a Panther on it's first shot then no, unless the panther has a bad quality plate. But, a platoon of Shermans all hitting a panther will reduce the integrity of the armour. Not to mention possibly destroy it's optics and barrel.

Let me show you what i mean. This is from the eastern front, this tiger was hit on the thickest spot by 85mm guns on T-34s. While they did not penetrate due to the unfortunate area of impact, the reduced the integrity of the armour of the Tiger, the second hit shattered part of the tiger armour, and the first hit most likely caused spalling right in the drivers chest even if it didn't penetrate. So with just 2 hits from a non penetrating gun, the armour shattered.

wnBoFag.jpg


This wasn't just an issue with the tiger either. This happened a lot. The western allied also did some tests on the panther when they captured one, they tried 90mm 76mm and 17 pounder against a panther. The 17 pounder penetrated and went through the front hull plate. But look at what happened when several non penetrating rounds landed around the machine gun.

DhbbzAj.jpg

Ok, thanks for the good answer.
I see, what you mean.

Nevertheless, i would question, wether the cannon of the M10 was probably better suited for a frontal Engagement and why it souldn't be a part of frontline offensive opertations.
 

77Hawk77

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Ok, thanks for the good answer.
I see, what you mean.

Nevertheless, i would question, wether the cannon of the M10 was probably better suited for a frontal Engagement and why it souldn't be a part of frontline offensive opertations.

It's more a matter of good enough. It's not like it wasn't part of offensive operations but it was in the reserve. The M10 was better at this than the SU-76 or Stug though since it wasn't an assault gun.
 

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The Panther in its original design was a lighter tank which matched with the transmission but somewhere down the line someone decided it needed a ridiculous level of front armor and left the transmission in place making it very unreliable. This was a bit of a problem with the French infantry tanks like the R-35 as well.
 

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In a 1954 US Ballistic Research Laboratory study of the 3rd and 4th armored divisions during the august-December 1944 time period, Shermans killed 70 panthers for the loss of 20 shermans in direct tank vs. tank engagements.


You just have a hateboner for German tanks!

(sorry I couldn't resist after all the crap they gave me).
 

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Much of the Sherman bashing you see on TV or in video games is entirely unjustified and categorically false.

I blame Belton Cooper. Death Traps is treated like a bible to History Channel and every layman on the internet. It's an interesting book if you look at it for what it is: a memoir. It's not a researched history book by a historian.
 

keynes2.0

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I blame Belton Cooper. Death Traps is treated like a bible to History Channel and every layman on the internet. It's an interesting book if you look at it for what it is: a memoir. It's not a researched history book by a historian.

Didn't the problem exist prior to Cooper though? It's not the only case of armchair historians going by a few topline figures to build up a piece of equipment. And it's not even a german only thing, look at how people treat the Yamamoto, the KV-1 or the Char B1 as the best things around when they didn't actually accomplish too much and didn't see much use for very obvious reasons. Cooper certainly deserves part of the blame for the myths of the Panther, Tiger and Pershing but the tendency cannot be blamed on him alone.
 

Karlburg

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Didn't the problem exist prior to Cooper though? It's not the only case of armchair historians going by a few topline figures to build up a piece of equipment. And it's not even a german only thing, look at how people treat the Yamamoto, the KV-1 or the Char B1 as the best things around when they didn't actually accomplish too much and didn't see much use for very obvious reasons. Cooper certainly deserves part of the blame for the myths of the Panther, Tiger and Pershing but the tendency cannot be blamed on him alone.

I kinda think the reason for that rivet counting being the favored thing for the amateur historian is that it doesn't require much research. Armor penetration and armor is something you can google, combat histories and meta-studies are really not.
 

Killertomato

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I kinda think the reason for that rivet counting being the favored thing for the amateur historian is that it doesn't require much research. Armor penetration and armor is something you can google, combat histories and meta-studies are really not.

You can google those things these days.

Those things are special to the slightly educated even today because they're huge and they have heavy armor and enormous guns. Superficially, they are the best. Yamato was the biggest battleship ever. Tiger II the biggest operational tank of WWII. Me-262 the first operational jet. That none of that mattered because they have no strategic mobility/airplanes existed/they ran out of gas is beside the point.
 

Admiral Piett

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Critical thinking is hard, so people seize on the most simplistic narrative that happens to confirm their own narrow worldview. Any single aspect of military history takes years to actually master, so there is a ton of ignorance to fill with D-grade History Channel documentaries. One of the most important things I learned during my schooling was to know what you don't know, and either defer to people that do know the stuff, stay silent (if that is an option), or conduct sound research into it before you even think of commenting. Everyone is ignorant of something, as no one human being can truly know everything (or even a majority of things). Understanding that keeps one humble, and can open the door to asking questions of people that do know about a given topic. Not understanding that point leads to this:

2b202c8b30837f0f0a86ad9e593b9780.jpg
 

ArmouredTopHat

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Didn't the problem exist prior to Cooper though? It's not the only case of armchair historians going by a few topline figures to build up a piece of equipment. And it's not even a german only thing, look at how people treat the Yamamoto, the KV-1 or the Char B1 as the best things around when they didn't actually accomplish too much and didn't see much use for very obvious reasons. Cooper certainly deserves part of the blame for the myths of the Panther, Tiger and Pershing but the tendency cannot be blamed on him alone.

In my Dissertation research, I discovered that a lot of the immediate post war doctrine research was very influenced by German strategy in the 1944 period, IE largely static defence with mobile counter attacks, despite the tactic not actually working against superior firepower. It was regardless decided that copying or trying to repeat what German did was the key to defending against the far more numerous soviet forces, as there was little option otherwise.

To quote from John Buckely:
*start quote*
In the post-war era, as NATO military planners and analysts sought answers to the difficulties of preventing much larger Warsaw Pact forces from swarming into western Europe, they seemed to have a fair blueprint in the techniques of the Germans in the closing years of the Second World War. Despite being heavily outnumbered the Germans had stymied vast enemy armies for periods of time, both in the east and the west, supposedly by employing cunning and resourceful battlefield craft. Lt-Gen Giffard Le Quesne Martel claimed in 1951 that in order to stop the Russians the West would have to learn from the Germans and employ mobile armoured tactics. He stated that ‘linear defence is fifteen years out of date for European warfare, and we must do the same as the Germans did with their mobile forces’. The Allies might have won the war, but their success was based upon sheer weight of numbers and resources, not operational and tactical acumen, it was claimed by senior officers. That the Germans had employed a static rather than a mobile defence in the summer of 1944 was carefully ignored, as was the obvious point that they had found little success in stopping either the Soviets or the Western armies no matter what tactics they had used. 11
Furthermore, as Terry Copp has argued, this interpretation also put aside the harsh and brutal methods the German army employed as a means of instilling fear of recrimination for retreat or failure, and focused instead purely on the tactical and operational methods utilised, especially against Allied and Soviet armour.

This developing assessment by senior officers such as Martel was in part predicated upon the analysis of historians such as Basil Liddell Hart, intent on proving that the Germans had been influenced by his pre-war works and had developed their techniques from his ideas of dynamic, mobile armoured warfare. 13 The efficacy of this was demonstrated not only in the so-called blitzkrieg period but also in the manner in which the superior tactics of the Germans confounded the Allies in Normandy for so long, and against all the odds. Although the Allies held considerable resource advantages in artillery, air power and armour, they were unable to bring their tanks to bear as effectively as they should because they ignored the lessons they might have learnt from Liddell Hart or from the success of the Germans in the early phase of the war. *end quote*

It is this immediate post war writing which helped generate the myth that the Germans had all the qualitative advantages, and figures such as Cooper only reinforced the notion as well as unleash further inaccurate claims. This apparent German battlefield mastery swiftly led to accusations of allied incompetence and poor equipment, with Tanks such as the Sherman quickly coming under fire.

Of course, during the war there was plenty of criticism as well, particularly in the UK over their tank design, and although a fair amount of it was legitimate, there was also plenty of tripe being thrown around in Parliament as well. Much of it was politicians simply getting scraps of information and assuming the rest.

Thus the basic problem is people looking at the topic for a few seconds, and making a swift conclusion rather than looking at the actual studies that suggest otherwise. Quite literally a case of 'Oh look this tank looks nice and has a big gun therefore it must be better'
 

DrRansom

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ArmoredTopHat - what was your dissertation on? I am curious what is the best defensive strategy against a superior firepower steamroller, such as the Soviets had in the latter half of WW2.

Also, I have seen it mentioned in several spaces that, by the end of the war, the Soviets and US/British had better operational art than the Germans. Is that a reasonable statement?
 

Killertomato

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ArmoredTopHat - what was your dissertation on? I am curious what is the best defensive strategy against a superior firepower steamroller, such as the Soviets had in the latter half of WW2.

The best is the one NATO actually went with, which was lots and lots of nukes.

Since that became untenable after the mid-1960s, the question you ask is the one NATO planners had to struggle with the entire length of the Cold War. The best strategy is the one the USSR had- strike fast and hard first, with overwhelming force, taking the initiative for yourself. Everything NATO actually came up with was a gamble that you we could kill enough of them for them to give up before they won. Forward Defense was 100% the worst way of doing this. Airland Battle was better, but as of 1991, the best way was still the Soviet way.
 
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