Tank Combat in Steel Division

[Desty12345]

M18 Hellcat

After some digging around, it looks like the 704th got their first M18s in May and deployed with them.
Link to the history of the 704th on the first 2 pages of Combat History.
July 25th, 1944
"Sgt Joe Shedevy, tank commander spotted the enemy tanks first, T /5 Bleemel Beck, driver, whipped the tank around into firing position,
Pfc Manuel Alviso shoved home a 76 mm APC, the breech block snapped shut, Cpl Clinton Threet laid the crosshairs on the center of the swastika, and the first round fired at an enemy tank by an M-18 of the Battalion tore through its mark."

 

[Thonar]

You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding what I am saying. I have on several occasions now needed to point out that you are intrepreting my words to mean things they clearly are not. This is the last straw for me. Honestly it is insulting and I am putting you on the mute list.

Do whatever you want, but you base your whole view on one table that is in every respect flawed in this discussion and has, as a matter of fact, nothing to do in here since it relates to nothing in the topic.
Still you remain the one that constantly states that exactly this table is the proof that German tanks were inefficient against tanks and you even go so far to say that tanks are only meaningful in an Anti-Tank-Role when the local circumstances are fitting.
You feel yourself insulted? It is always ones own fault.

 

[holoween]

Because of the history of communist domination of eastern europe, the imagery of the Nazis as a "shield" protecting eastern Europe from communism was taken up by the neo-Nazi movement.

im sorry but this is literally the sutpides reasoning ive ever heard.
the shield doesnt appear anywhere as secific nazi symbolic and calling someone a neo nazi based on using shield and sword in their naming is just straight insane.

 

[keynes2.0]

the shield doesnt appear anywhere as secific nazi symbolic

Well forum rules prohibit me from posting any of the hundreds of such examples (since Nazi symbols aren't allowed on this forum) so all I can say is that google exists and suggest that you avail yourself of it rather then insulting me. It took me all of ten seconds to find examples.

In particular I would suggest looking into Ukrainian and Russian neo-Nazi groups.

 

[holoween]

Well forum rules prohibit me from posting any of the hundreds of such examples (since Nazi symbols aren't allowed on this forum) so all I can say is that google exists and suggest that you avail yourself of it rather then insulting me.

your assertion is that using sword and shield symols makes you a neo nazi rather than it being very standard military symbols which yes i find insane.
by that logic the american military is a neo nazi organisation for using desert shield as a operation name.

 

[keynes2.0]

your assertion is that using sword and shield symols makes you a neo nazi

No it is not. This is very easy to understand.

Shield images = Not a Nazi
Describing the SS in Hungary as a shield = Nazi

The difference is in what is being described as a shield.

 

[Ulatersk]

No it is not. This is very easy to understand.

Shield images = Not a Nazi
Describing the SS in Hungary as a shield = Nazi

The difference is in what is being described as a shield.

The strawman of what you think is being desribed you mean.

 

[keynes2.0]

The strawman of what you think is being desribed you mean.

So you are telling me that:
"The Sword Behind The Shield: A Combat History of the German Efforts to Relieve Budapest 1945"

Does not refer to the SS?

 

[holoween]

So you are telling me that:
"The Sword Behind The Shield: A Combat History of the German Efforts to Relieve Budapest 1945"

Does not refer to the SS?

if anything the ss is referred to as the sword seeing as they were the ones attacking. but considering it wasint even pure ss but this is a description of military operations i dont see how hes even describing the ss in particular.

 

[keynes2.0]

i dont see how hes even describing the ss in particular.

Because it's one of the most famous operations conducted by the SS?

 

[Ulatersk]

So you are telling me that:
"The Sword Behind The Shield: A Combat History of the German Efforts to Relieve Budapest 1945"

Does not refer to the SS?

Its about (spoiler warning):

Hungarians:

- 10th Infantry division
- 12th Res. infantry division
- 1st Pz. division
- 1st cavalry division
- 7 Stug battalions
- 7 Flak battalions
- Sicherungsbattalion Budapest
- 2 Uni-Sturm battalions
- About 30 construction and engineer battalions
- Beszterceer, Galantaer, Pécser, Székelyudvarhelyer and Zilaher Gandarmerie battalions
- Polizei-Sturm battalion
- Vannay-Battalion
- Sturmbat. Budapest I. and . II
- Leibstandarte von Szálasi.
- Kampfgruppen (Berend, Korányi, Déri, Morlin, Viharos)
- Artillerie (12 Batterien)
- Institute und Nachschubtrupen
- Partei-Freiwillige
- KISKA

About 52 000 strong.

Germans:


- 8th SS cavalry division
- 22th SS cavalry division
- 13. Pz. division
- Panzergrenadier division Feldherrnhalle
- 271st Volksgrenadier division
- 1st SS-Polizei-Rgt
- 12th SS-Polizei-Panzer-Komp.
- 12th Flak-Sturm-Rgt
- 40/I sFlak-Abt.
- 573rd sFlak-Abt.
- Bataillon Europa
- Kampfruppen
- Batallion z.b.V. 500
- Sonstige Truppenteile
- Heerestruppen

About 42 000 strong.

Konrad-1:

- 3rd SS Pz. division
- 5th SS Pz. division
- 96th infantry division
- 711th Infantry division
- Kampfgruppe Pape

Konrad-2:
- 4th Cavalry Brigade
- 1st Pz. division
- 3rd Pz. division
- 23rd Pz. division with 503rd/Feldheerrnhalle

Konrad-3:

- 3rd SS Pz. division
- 5th SS Pz. division
- 1st Pz. division
- 3rd Pz. divsion
- 23rd Pz. division
- 4th Cavalry Brigade
- 20th infantry division
- 25th infantry division
- 356 infantry division


There were about 6 SS divisions and 10 separate SS units out of about 100 units present serving under germans and hungarians.
SS was not even a half out of the german portion of Budapest garrison, nevermind all of it.


And if it is so famous, I would like to honestly hear who here knows there were actually 3 operations, not one.

 

[holoween]

Dr. Norbert Szamveber is a Hungarian archivist and military historian. He was born in 1975 in Budapest. He finished studies in 1999 in Eotvos Lorand University, Faculty of Arts, History. Since 1997 he has worked in the Hungarian Ministry of Defense Institute of Military History and Museum in Budapest, and since 2005 has been the Chief of Hungarian Military Archives. His research skills are in the field of armoured warfare during World War II and the military history of the Waffen-SS, especially from 1944 to 1945 in Hungary. In 2003, he successfully defended his doctoral thesis on the subject "Konrad 3 - A Tank Battle for Budapest in 1945" at the University of National Defence "Zrinyi Miklos" in Budapest. He is author and co-author of 15 books and many articles. He is married and lives in Budapest.

https://www.amazon.de/Days-Battle-A...s=books-intl-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1488747724&sr=1-7
https://www.amazon.de/Days-Battle-A...s=books-intl-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1488747724&sr=1-7
https://www.amazon.de/Days-Battle-A...s=books-intl-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1488747724&sr=1-7
thats what amazo writes about the author and looking at what books hes publised and from all the information i can find on the author i just cant see how this is in any way neo nazi.
the naming of the book to me sounds like a fairly normal titel for a book deaing with military operations especially considering that sword and shield are heavily used in military operations and in military symbology.

 

[keynes2.0]

And if it is so famous, I would like to honestly hear who here knows there were actually 3 operations, not one.

It's only famous in the context of the SS, not as a military operation. This is my point. While much more interesting and significant military operations were going on, he chose to write a book about the operation that the SS conducted.

Let me give you the list of his books on amazon:
Illustrated History of the Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 202
Days of Battle: Armoured Operations North of the River Danube, Hungary 1944-45
Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy: The Combat History of SS Panzer Regiment 12 and SS Panzerjäger Abteilung 12, Normandy
The Sword Behind The Shield: A Combat History of the German Efforts to Relieve Budapest 1945 - Operation 'Konrad

Of the four books, two are specifically about the SS and the other two are specifically about operations famous for SS involvement.

thats what amazo writes about the author

Aren't amazon biographies put up by the authors themselves?

 

[Thonar]

Ohh,... and is there even proof that the title is of him and not from the publisher?

 

[olm]

"Neo-nazi" is a very serious accusation, "proofs" provided so far have been frankly just silly.

Also there is nothing strange about Hungarian historian taking interest in battles that happened to take place in Hungary.

 

[Killertomato]

After some digging around, it looks like the 704th got their first M18s in May and deployed with them.
Link to the history of the 704th on the first 2 pages of Combat History.
July 25th, 1944
"Sgt Joe Shedevy, tank commander spotted the enemy tanks first, T /5 Bleemel Beck, driver, whipped the tank around into firing position,
Pfc Manuel Alviso shoved home a 76 mm APC, the breech block snapped shut, Cpl Clinton Threet laid the crosshairs on the center of the swastika, and the first round fired at an enemy tank by an M-18 of the Battalion tore through its mark."

Yeah, M18s were definitely around in Normandy. M10s were too, of course, and so was Achilles. There's also Challenger, which was more or less used as a TD.

Couple those with M4A1 (76) and Sherman Firefly and the allies aren't completely helpless vs. german armor, even at range, except for Tiger II, and not even that with 17-pounder APDS.

Speaking of 17-pounder APDS (afaik first deployed July 1944), it would be neat if we could select, through turning a weapon on or off, whether a vehicle fires that or APCBC. I'm thinking huge AP for APDS but a greatly reduced level of accuracy. Maybe on Achilles?

 

[holoween]

Aren't amazon biographies put up by the authors themselves?

http://militaria.hu/adatb/leveltariuj/content/hm_him_hl_bécsi_kirendeltsége
use google translate

cba to verify this any further as i dont speak a word hungarian.

 

[keynes2.0]

"Neo-nazi" is a very serious accusation, "proofs" provided so far have been frankly just silly.

Also there is nothing strange about Hungarian historian taking interest in battles that happened to take place in Hungary.

And I'm not saying that is strange. What I am saying is that it says a lot that he cares about the operation by the 2 SS divisions and not say the massive Soviet armored offensive that immediately preceded it.

You know this conversation follows a very predictable pattern. I say a thing. You guys say that I shouldn't complain about something that I'm not complaining about. I restate my original position and no one acknowledges this.

http://militaria.hu/adatb/leveltariuj/content/hm_him_hl_bécsi_kirendeltsége
use google translate

cba to verify this any further as i dont speak a word hungarian.

And...? I'm not saying that he isn't a historian. I'm saying that he is a historian with a very obvious bias. Historians do have biases on occasion.

Please, do a little thought experiment. Look at all the evidence except for this guy. What does the picture look like without him in it? All the other sources paint a humdrum conventional picture.

Why is THIS guy the authority you want to use to discount what everyone else says. What about the guy who has written four books on the SS makes HIM the authority on the Panther tank we need?

 

[holoween]

And I'm not saying that is strange. What I am saying is that it says a lot that he cares about the operation by the 2 SS divisions and not say the massive Soviet armored offensive that immediately preceded it.

and now you make him a neo nazi because he doesnt focus on the soviets.

 

[Thonar]

and now you make him a neo nazi because he doesnt focus on the soviets.

It's not like Hungary had to suffer under the Soviet Union and research in such topics was complicated to say at best...