Tall play super viable in 2.0

[serpentskirt]

Could you put the same kind of graphic for tech plz to see the progress during time? Very nice data anyway thx

Here you go:

I messed up parsing my logs - number of technologies is twice as low. So it is 70 for first (balanced) and 79 for second (focused) approach. Sorry if I caused some confusion.

 

[serpentskirt]

I made a quick test yesterday and was able to get star fortresses card in 2230. That was, however, just skipping days with fully populated and built colony from star by console commands.

I hope I'll be able to get the results of the real playthrough with this specific tech build somewhere during the weekend.

 

[Sentrus]

I made a quick test yesterday and was able to get star fortresses card in 2230. That was, however, just skipping days with fully populated and built colony from star by console commands.

I hope I'll be able to get the results of the real playthrough with this specific tech build somewhere during the weekend.

Cool. The earliest I've gotten it so far is 2241. Still, getting it before 2250, and without having three Starholds, is hard to complain about.

 

[serpentskirt]

Cool. The earliest I've gotten it so far is 2241. Still, getting it before 2250, and without having three Starholds, is hard to complain about.

2230 in that cheat-test was just to prove that you can force tech into showing up much earlier than 2250 by not researching "garbage" techs.

Sadly, Plaza version is still in 2.0.1, so I will be testing it with the old Planetary Survey Corps tradition, which might or might not significantly affect the outcome.

 

[serpentskirt]

Okay, so I tried beelining on the same setup as previous two games. I was able to draw Star Fortresses tech card in the end of 2246 which was 9 years earlier than on my focused run. So, it is definitely working and I have observed some interesting behaviours, which, I believe, will allow to speed up process even further.

My assumptions were:
1) Star Fortress' card may be forced into pool way before 2250 if there are no suitable tech cards (due to not met special conditions / missing prerequisites / not enough lower tier techs researched) - correct
2) all technologies with higher weights (probability) than Star Fortress must be researched first - not correct
3) higher tier techs are unlocked based on number of researched techs across all three fields - not correct
4) it is possible to block tech card by reverse-engineering debris - correct

Based on these I decided to ignore techs which unlock the most of other techs: Coilguns and Destroyers from Engineering, Colony Centralization from Society and Fusion Reactors from Physics. As I wanted as many tech alternatives as possible, I as well skipped Blue Lasers to draw Self-Evolving Logic as fast as possible.

+++ WALL OF TEXT +++

So, let's take a look at the research history:
Tech Card 1 (tier) / ... / Tech Card to research (tier) / ... / Tech Card N (tier) / (Reverse Engineered Tech Card 1) / ... / (Reverse Engineered Tech Card N) - Researched Tier 1 Techs / Researched Tier 2 Techs

Fusion Reactors (1) / Quantum Theory (1) / Global Energy Management (1) - 0 / 0
Planetary Unification (1) / Space Trading (1) / Biodevirsity Studies (1) - 0 / 0
Powered Exoskeletons (1) / Geothermal Fracking (1) / Nanomechanics (1) - 0 / 0

Improved Corvette Hulls (1) / Ceramo-Metal Materials (1) / Robotic Workers (1) - 1 / 0
Improved Deflectors (1) / Automated Exploration Protocols (1) / Blue Lasers (1) - 1 / 0
Adaptive Bureaucracy (1) / Global Defense Planning (1) / Neural Implants (1) - 1 / 0

Nanomechanics (1) / Geothermal Fracking (1) / Coilguns (1) - 2 / 0
Databank Uplinks (1) / Quantum Theory (1) / Fusion Power (1) - 2 / 0

Field Manipulation (1) / Blue Lasers (1) / Administrative AI (1) - 3 / 0
Mineral Processing (1) / Afterburners (1) / Ceramo-Metal Materials (1) - 3 / 0
Biodevirsity Studies (1) / Eco Simulation (1) / Space Trading (1) - 2 / 0

At this step I had researched a total of 8 tier 1 technologies, but none from tier 2 have appeared. That's how assumption (3) was proven incorrect. As such, I will list only Engineering techs further:

Nanomechanics (1) / Carrier Operations (1) / Standardized Corvette Patterns (1) - 4 / 0
Afterburners (1) / Machine Template System (1) / Improved Corvette Hulls (1) / Ceramo-Metal Materials (1) - 5 / 0
Destroyers (2) / Ion Thrusters (1) / Standardized Corvette Patterns (1) / Starhold (2) - 6 / 0

As soon as 6 technologies in Engineering were researched I got tier 2 techs as options. At this point I have unlocked +1 research alternative.

Machine Template System (1) / Modular Engineering (2) / Afterburners (1) / Ceramo-Metal Materials (1) / (Ion Thrusters) - 6 / 1

I've got Ion Thrusters from mining drones. From this point on, it will not appear among "normal" tech cards - assumption 4 was correct.

Destroyers (2) / Orilium Mining (2) / Advanced Corvette Hulls (2) / Assembly Patterns (1) / (Ion Thrusters) - 6 / 2
Afterburners (1) / Standardized Corvette Patterns (1) / Coilguns (1) / Machine Template System (1) / (Ion Thrusters) - 7 / 2

Another +1 alternative from now on. Note the interesting pattern - as I have so many alternatives, techs from odd lines will not appear in the even lines. This is due to tech's weight being halved after appearing as an option.

Orillium Mining (2) / Destroyers (2) / Space Torpedoes (2) / Carrier Operations (1) / Improved Structural Integrity (2) / (Ion Thrusters) - 8 / 2
Machine Template System (1) / Advanced Corvette Hulls (2) / Ceramo-Metal Materials (1) / Coilguns (1) / Afterburners (1) / (Ion Thrusters) - 8 / 3

Destroyers (2) / Space Torpedoes (2) / Carrier Operations (1) / Orillium Mining (2) / (Ion Thrusters) - 8 / 4
Coilguns (1) / Afterburners (1) / Ceramo-Metal Materials (1) / Machine Template System (1) / (Ion Thrusters) - 8 / 5

Something strange is happening - I should have 5 research alternatives, but game gives only 4 techs! It seems that if the tech was in the previous draw it will not appear on the next one at all! This proves assumption 2 wrong and changes the whole approach of which techs should be blocked to force desired card to be drawn.

Destroyers (2) / Carrier Operations (1) / Orillium Mining (2) / (Ion Thrusters) - 9 / 5
Ceramo-Metal Materials (1) / Afterburners (1) / Coilguns (1) / Armored Torpedoes (3) / Construction Templates (3) / (Ion Thrusters) - 9 / 6

It went down to mere 3 techs on odd draw. Again, as soon as 6 tier 2 techs were researched, tier 3 started to appear.

Destroyers (2) / Carrier Operations (1) / Star Fortress (3) / (Ion Thrusters) - 10 / 6

Finally, Star Fortress appeared, with no other tier 3 options present. Assumption 1 is correct.

+++ WALL OF TEXT ENDS +++

So, I've got desired tech on second draw after unlocking tier 3. Now, due to odd/even draws behaviour, one can block not mere 4 but a whooping 8 techs - I think it could be easily done 3-5 years earlier (I researched some expensive rare techs and had 4 tier 1 techs more than needed).

I'll post comparison between run #2 (focused) and run #3 (beeline) a bit later.

 

[Sentrus]

Nice work. Very thorough!

 

[Mavkiel]

Yeah that information is really helpful, a guide after run 3 would be really neat. Like avoid x and y tech to speed run to fortresses..

Personally speaking I tend to be dependent on certain techs like fortresses, so the rng thing can really screw me at times.

 

[serpentskirt]

I looked again at my notes and only changes I've made is to not research unnecessary tier 1 techs. Here is my cheat sheet (sorry, the actual localized tech names are missing, my parser is really dumb at the moment):

Techs on the same line are linked, e.g. tier 3 tech_flak_batteries_2 is unlocked by tech_flak_batteris_1 in tier 1. Tabs in same tier mean that technology above is a pre-requisite. E.g. tech_flak_batteries_1 is unlocked by tech_mass_drivers_2. Sometimes these are combined. Techs between brackets mean another pre-requisite.

So, first I went to tech 3 column and eliminated techs, which introduced the most alternatives - Coilguns (4) and Destroyers (4), marked with ---'s. Ignoring Colonial Centralization from Society and Fusion Power eliminates another 2. Afterburners will not appear until tier 3 thrusters will be researched, same goes for starbase hull tech. So we already went from 18 options to 6. With 5 research alternatives (3 + discovery tradition + Self-Evolving Logic from physics) we can block up to 8 technologies - 4 per each odd/even draw . 2 are already used.

I went back to tier 2 to make sure that 6 technologies can be researched - there are 13 available, however 5 of them are strategic resources and their draws may be prone to RNG. I crossed them out, as well adding Mineral Processing to pool of ignored techs (3 total now). This leaves 8 tier 2 techs, out of these I removed armor and strike craft (both are expensive and introduce additional tier 3 draw) techs. Tier 2 techs are sorted, tier 3 options are down to 4, pool of ignored techs consists of five techs.

Going to tier 1 I crossed out tech_assembly_pattern (and corresponding tier 3 tech). Two last guys to be ignored are afterburners and corvette build speed. Tier 1 is reduced to 6 techs, pool of ignored techs is full.

So we end up with following:

Spoiler: results

T1 research:
tech_engineering_lab_1
tech_mining_network_2
tech_powered_exoskeletons
tech_robotic_workers
tech_robomodding
tech_corvette_hull_1

T1 ignore:
tech_corvette_build_speed
tech_afterburners_1
tech_assembly_pattern
tech_mineral_processing_1
tech_strike_craft_1
tech_ship_armor_2
tech_mass_drivers_2

T2 research:
tech_starbase_3
tech_torpedoes_1
tech_corvette_hull_2
tech_defense_platform_hull_1
tech_modular_engineering
tech_thrusters_2

T2 ignore:
tech_destroyers

T3 options:
tech_starbase_4 (goal)
tech_torpedoes_2
tech_thrusters_3

Now, as we have 3 options in T3 this means you will probably need to research one T1 tech to make it possible (or go for another +1 alternative from civic). In fact, as pool of ignored stuff is so tight, you may end up with researching 2-3 extra T1 techs depending on RNG.

The cheat sheet is attached to this post - open it in Notepad++ or Sublime Text to preserve tab formatting.

I recommend to start a new game, use instant_build and grow_pops console commands to fill up planet with labs and try this method first on that test game. You'll need to unlock discovery tradition for additional alternatives according to your playstyle - for me that is after 5 engineering techs are researched.

Edit: fixed a typo.

 

[Cataflam]

Okay, so I tried beelining on the same setup as previous two games. I was able to draw Star Fortresses tech card in the end of 2246 which was 9 years earlier than on my focused run. So, it is definitely working and I have observed some interesting behaviours, which, I believe, will allow to speed up process even further.

View attachment 351029

Sorry for the off
How did you get maniac and spark of genius at the same time ?

 

[Defiler99]

Sorry for the off
How did you get maniac and spark of genius at the same time ?

You can get either of the two as a level-up trait. It tends to take a lot of hiring and firing to get a full set, but it's nice to have Spark of Genius + Maniacal + Psionic all at once.

 

[Defiler99]

Some love and some pain for this style in today's update to the beta.

* Habitats now cost 200 influence each
* Reduced tech cost per system from 2% to 1%
* Raised base tech costs

On the (very) plus side, Circle of Life is gone now and Galactic Wonders directly unlocks Ringworlds.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

Some love and some pain for this style in today's update to the beta.


On the (very) plus side, Circle of Life is gone now and Galactic Wonders directly unlocks Ringworlds.

Yah. Voidborne is weaker and no longer a prereq for ringworlds, but still provides an unlimited influence sink (so still useful as an addition to galactic wonders) and still makes it easier to unlock ringworlds (by unlocking master builders, which you want anyway if you're building ringworlds, which gives easier access to mega-engineering) so I think will still be taken.

The fact that you can get ringworlds and wonders in one perk also is nice; due to competing for time, spending 2 perks on wonders and ringworlds was not a very good choice, one reduced the benefit of the other. Ringworlds almost always the better choice, I'd only pick up wonders in wide games where reduced benefit and RP reasons made me not want habitats. Now, there is just 1 perk slot to unlock them both, and probably almost always worth it to lose 2 ringworlds (due to time constraints) to build the 3 wonders. And will help out a perk-strapped tall empire I'm playing, where I was going to forego galactic wonders despite being in the position to benefit from them.

Btw, always assumed it was intentional, but always found the whole voidborne/master builders/mega-engineering/wonders prereq structure pretty cool. Don't want habitats? Well, you can still make a dyson sphere. It'll just take you longer to figure out how. Makes great sense, and nice they added ringworlds to it too

 

[serpentskirt]

So here is the comparison between focused and beeline games (v.2.0.1).

Reminder on focused strategy:
Adaptability, harmony, discovery. I focused on building farms on food tiles, then on energy tiles, then on mineral tiles. After I filled population, I replaced farms with engineering labs. After I researched star fortresses, I replaced labs on non-engineering tiles with mines.

Beeline strategy:
Adaptability, discovery, expansion. Built farms on all the food and mineral tiles, engineering labs on science tiles, energy on energy, unity on empty tiles. Techwise was rushing for Star Fortresses, so ignored Colony Centralization - as a result had a lot of minerals as I didn't have to upgrade buildings on planet - 10k were accumulated by 2242. Could've done it by 2232, but decided to build a fleet to clear some mobs to finish anomaly.

Beelining was a success, I have started building my first habitat at 2251 (vs. 2260 in focused), by 2260 I started building another one. I could've had some troubles with unity, but as that was third time playing the map I knew where artists were residing and managed to fix it in time with art monument.

I have unlocked Farming Subsidies quite early and decided to rely on that alone to fill the planet, so skipped robots entirely. That was a mistake - I managed to fill it only by 2248 (vs. 2234 in focused, where I built some robots). I could've probably gotten Star Fortresses a good 4-6 years earlier otherwise - but then I for sure wouldn't be able to get second ascension in time.

Beeline is three technologies behind by 2265. Tech rate is almost the same, there is 4 years shift mainly due to planet being populated later. Of course, just comparing number of techs is a bit stupid (because in focused I researched everything that was thrown at me, in beeline - mostly tier 1 techs) but the difference is not dramatic either (to remind - I had only first level engineering labs in beeline game).

Tradition gain rate is almost the same in both games as well. I would say going for paradise dome just for additional unity is not worth it with just one planet available. Finding artist enclave should be your priority.

Conclusions:
Robots are great for Life-Seeded as you can get full effect from your awesome planet earlier. If you are not gimping yourself by staying in one system - that's about the only reliable way to grab planets fast (the other would be via migration treaties).

Focusing on robots, you can skip Industrious on your main species and use robo-modding instead. I'm leaning towards replacing it with Intelligent, dropping Natural Engineers in favour of Traditional (to mend unity gain) and/or Quick Learners (to get more goodies from anomalies and boost from science divisions leaders faster).

Might be not a bad idea to switch from Authoritarian to Spiritualist - not the best synergy with robots but, well, that's life, unity is much needed. Materialist can be viable too - though I have not played latest 2.0.2 beta yet to see what's the impact on unity from updated Discovery tree. Or, you know, with that tech rate you may just sit on first perk until you get Star Fortresses.

With that taken in account, one might start building habitats somewhere around 2242-2247 depending on tech cards RNG.

 

[Defiler99]

Amazing work on the research; thank you.
The numbers are all brutally different in the latest 2.0.2 beta; playing a Fanatic Purifier / Life-Seeded game right now, and I don't have my third Ascension Perk yet.
It's 2294!!

 

[serpentskirt]

Ok guys, a little teaser:

I'm working on general guide and instructions for this tool and plan to post it later this week. The tool is a PowerShell script (so Windows-only), normally it should be pre-installed on everything that is not older than 5-7 years. As you can do pretty nasty stuff with PS, I would like to check with @His_Excellency (or, dunno @GAGA Extrem - I know you are a common visitor here, maybe you can transmit a poke) if it is fine to attach source directly to message or it is better to host on separate site and only mention it via link?

 

[Sentrus]

Nice. I was thinking of doing something similar in Python but I'm way too lazy. Looking forward to messing with it.

 

[Defiler99]

Ok guys, a little teaser:

I'm working on general guide and instructions for this tool and plan to post it later this week. The tool is a PowerShell script (so Windows-only), normally it should be pre-installed on everything that is not older than 5-7 years. As you can do pretty nasty stuff with PS, I would like to check with @His_Excellency (or, dunno @GAGA Extrem - I know you are a common visitor here, maybe you can transmit a poke) if it is fine to attach source directly to message or it is better to host on separate site and only mention it via link?

Nice. Generally I've seen people host their work on GitHub, and then link to that here.

 

[Aquilegia]

What techs would be good to get and skip to get zero-point power as quickly as possible (for master builders->galactic wonders)?

 

[Sentrus]

Ok guys, a little teaser:
View attachment 353955

I'm working on general guide and instructions for this tool and plan to post it later this week. The tool is a PowerShell script (so Windows-only), normally it should be pre-installed on everything that is not older than 5-7 years. As you can do pretty nasty stuff with PS, I would like to check with @His_Excellency (or, dunno @GAGA Extrem - I know you are a common visitor here, maybe you can transmit a poke) if it is fine to attach source directly to message or it is better to host on separate site and only mention it via link?

Any update on this?

 

[serpentskirt]

What techs would be good to get and skip to get zero-point power as quickly as possible (for master builders->galactic wonders)?

This one is +1 research opportunity + least research points, but it blocks capital upgrades:

Spoiler

blocked physics techs (from least to most heavy techs):
tech_reactor_boosters_2 - blocked 7000 physics research points
tech_synchronized_defences - blocked 10000 physics research points
tech_shields_5 - blocked 12000 physics research points
tech_gateway_activation - blocked 12000 physics research points
tech_sapient_ai - blocked 18000 physics research points
tech_combat_computers_1 - blocked 26000 physics research points
tech_sensors_2 - blocked 35000 physics research points
tech_lasers_2 - blocked 125750 physics research points
tier sanity check (maximum desired is 4): 8 / 6 / 6 / 0
---
blocked society techs (from least to most heavy techs):
tech_planetary_unification - blocked 57000 physics research points
tier sanity check (maximum desired is 1): 0 / 18 / 14 / 11
---
allowed physics techs:
1 - tech_physics_lab_1
1 - tech_power_hub_1
1 - tech_power_plant_2
1 - tech_fusion_power
1 - tech_automated_exploration
1 - tech_shields_2
1 - tech_cryostasis_1
1 - tech_administrative_ai
2 - tech_cold_fusion_power
2 - tech_shields_3
2 - tech_shield_rechargers_1
2 - tech_hyper_drive_2
2 - tech_self_aware_logic
2 - tech_ftl_inhibitor
3 - tech_cryostasis_2
3 - tech_antimatter_power
3 - tech_wormhole_stabilization
3 - tech_shields_4
3 - tech_planetary_shield_generator
3 - tech_hyper_drive_3
4 - tech_zero_point_power

This one is +1 research alternatives and takes into account capital upgrades:

Spoiler

blocked physics techs (from least to most heavy techs):[/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT]
[SIZE=14px][COLOR=rgb(255, 255, 255)]
[LEFT]tech_physics_lab_3 - blocked 10000 physics research points
tech_synchronized_defences - blocked 10000 physics research points
tech_power_plant_4 - blocked 10000 physics research points
tech_gateway_activation - blocked 12000 physics research points
tech_sapient_ai - blocked 18000 physics research points
tech_shields_2 - blocked 28000 physics research points
tech_sensors_2 - blocked 35000 physics research points
tech_lasers_2 - blocked 125750 physics research points
tier sanity check (maximum desired is 4): 11 / 6 / 6 / 3
---
allowed physics techs:
1 - tech_physics_lab_1
1 - tech_power_hub_1
1 - tech_power_plant_2
1 - tech_reactor_boosters_3
1 - tech_reactor_boosters_2
1 - tech_auxiliary_fire_control
1 - tech_combat_computers_1
1 - tech_fusion_power
1 - tech_cryostasis_1
1 - tech_administrative_ai
1 - tech_automated_exploration
2 - tech_hyper_drive_2
2 - tech_physics_lab_2
2 - tech_power_plant_3
2 - tech_self_aware_logic
2 - tech_cold_fusion_power
2 - tech_ftl_inhibitor
3 - tech_wormhole_stabilization
3 - tech_cryostasis_2
3 - tech_power_hub_2
3 - tech_combat_computers_2
3 - tech_hyper_drive_3
3 - tech_antimatter_power
4 - tech_zero_point_power
4 - tech_global_research_initiative
4 - tech_combat_computers_autonomous

​

Looks like ignoring lasers, shields and sensors entirely is a way to go.

You can use attached modified save file to test research paths to see if it is working for you. It's for vanilla game, no DLC required.

Any update on this?

As I'm a bit lagging with the general guide - here is GitHub repo for the beeliner. If you'll run into troubles, please PM me or contact me by other means (looks like you've turned off forum PMs, otherwise you've received the link a couple of days earlier) to not derail this thread.​