Talking Turkey: Alternate History from 1936

[roverS3]

Expanding the Navy a bit is a good thing - and light cruisers are on the menu. But the problem with larger ships is not industry, but our prehistoric naval tech. And there's so much more important stuff to research in the meantime and never enough LS to do it. The alternative is building pre-WW1 vintage ships, which seems pretty naff. I'll think about CA, but for now it's not going to be a priority. I don't think I need them to help the Comintern win the overall war.

The thing is that by building a bunch of Light Cruisers now, you'll improve your Cruiser Practical, and that will make researching CA's significantly cheaper. (and it'll mean you don't have to build prehistoric CA's to get the naval side of things going.) I realise that, for now, it is very important to keep the technology that is needed for the current war up to date. And from the point of view of Turkey being a team player, that's what it should do. That said, for Turkey to become the Mediterranean powerhouse it wants to become, it needs to be able to flex some naval muscle. Maybe start slowly with the CA research, one tech at a time, it's an investment for the future, and it's an area where it will be difficult to catch up quickly. As they say, while at war, prepare for peace. To maintain a favourable peace, and avoid it's valuable wartime gains getting eroded, Turkey needs some capital ships, it's that simple. In some sense, Turkey continuing to go all out on the current war on land, and in the air, is rather altruistic. Now that the enemy is clearly being pushed back, Turkey needs to think about it's own goals. Don't tell anyone in STAVKA that I'm advocating for Turkey to start building it's own post-war strategy now, independently of the Comintern. Turkey could eventually go all-in on a naval strategy before the war ends, and take advantage from Lend-Lease Aid to build a large amount of modern escorts, preferably CL's, while it starts to ramp up research of it's own CA's, which will then be produced once the war is over. In any conflict with the UK over Mediterranean influence, you better have a navy.

Congratulations on a spectacular start to operation Mayhem. The Marines gave it their all, and now you're two provinces deep over the Sava. Casualties are high, but still nothing compared to the potential number of enemy troops that can be taken permanently out of the war if this succeeds.

I have to say, the Turkish Air Force has been instrumental here. They have gone above and beyond the call of duty, harassing enemy bombers again and again. They won't be able to keep this up indefinitely, but while it continues to work, the Turkish Army is free to do great things.

The Enemy attacks on the flank aren't that dangerous, especially now that Gradiska is also in Turkish hands. If Turkey has to trade some ground for time along the Adriatic, that's not a terrible trade, if it means Mayhem becomes a resounding success, taking out a big chunk of Axis forces along the Sava. In any case, now that the river has been crossed, the Turkish Army has to commit fully to the offensive.

Sponetaneous celebrations have broken out in the streets of Moscow, Sevastopol, and Stalingrad, with crowds brandishing both Turkish and Soviet flags. In our darkest hour, the Soviet People know that they have a great ally, not in his size, but in his bravery and skill. This is only the beginning,

Alea iacta est,

Let there be victory,

SkitalecS3

OOC: You could have created an underground resistance base, which would have produced partisans in your chosen location, once it was ready. This probably wouldn't have been practical, but it is possible since TFH to simulate partisans in-game...

 

[diskoerekto]

The storylines are all going great! A very good episode! Vur Ha!

S.I.T.H. (Secret Intelligence Technical Headquarters)

I realized I can make a backronym for this in Turkish as well: Sırrî İstihbarat Teknik Hanesi. Not exactly correct, but really close with an arcane mix of questionable Ottoman Turkish with modern Turkish. Actually this bizarre collection of words quite matches with the aesthetics of SITH we love.

A soccer match organised at a community centre to commemorate the fourth anniversary of the death of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk Day. The banner exhorts the populace to be active – and not undermine the war effort through idle chatter: "Don't spend your time gossiping, perform sports instead." [Courtesy of the photo archives and translation services of MAJGEN @diskoerekto ]

Note the stars on the chests of the athletes, this picture in real life is before the Turkish McCarthyism era of the 50s so many symbols (like a star that even is in the flag, but still) are not yet deemed dangerous, Russian salad has not yet become American salad.

Lately I haven't come across new photos unfortunately but there'll be more I'm sure

Air Damage Report. The Italian raids on Tuzla killed another 902 Comintern defenders.

Once again a bloody victory on the land turns into a draw when air losses are added :/

Kocatepe class

Mildly uprated Folgore class ships (2 of them) bought from Italy in early 30s. wikipedia

Then at 5pm, 15 Inf Div reached Novi Grad. As soon as the code word “Fight Club” was transmitted to 1st Army HQ, Inönü replied with the signal “let the mayhem begin”. This was the code word for the unleashing of Operation Mayhem: the Turkish spring offensive for 1943. Reports of disruption, sabotage and other fifth column operations behind the Axis lines were soon coming in. Durden, his Turkish allies and local guerrillas were doing what they could [no game effect, but it would be a logical kind of thing for the Turks to do in what in occupied territory of the UGNR. Think a mix of French partisans before D Day and the German's in the Ardennes as the Battle of the Bulge was kicking off. ]

4 AM
Zone Ağzıkara-Söğütlüdere
12th Infantry Division
Eyes set to the distance, into the dark
Hands are close by, on the mechanisms
Everybody in their place
The battalion imam
the single unarmed man in the trench: man of the dead,
planting a broken willow branch towards Mecca,
bowed his head, united his hands, started his morning prayer.
He is content.
Heaven, is a perpetual place of rest.
And shall they get beaten by the enemy, or shall they beat,
he will, from the fields of war, with his own hands, deliver the martyred to the mighty Lord of the realm

4:45 AM
Zone Sandıklı.
Villages.
Cavalryman with black, drooped moustache,
stood beside his gelding, beside the maple tree.
Gelding from the Netherplains was hitting his tail to the darkness:
blood on his kneecaps, foam on his bit...
Fourth Company from Second Cavalry Division,
is smelling the air with its horses, sabers and humans.
Back there, in the villages a rooster crowed.
And the cavalryman with the black, drooped moustache covered his face with the back of his hand.
Behind the mountains across, left in the hands of the enemy there's another rooster:
a single comb, milk white Denizli rooster.
The enemy most probably already slaughtered him and cook his soup...

.....

It is five to five.

Mountains are lightening.
Something is burning somewhere.
Dawn is about to break.
The smell starts to fume:
Motherland is waking up.
And in this moment, letting loose the heart like a hawk to the skies
and seeing sparkles
and hearing voices calling to very far, very far places,
on the frontline, on the very front row,
one wants to rear up and die.

Artillery lieutenant Hasan was 21 years old.
Turned his auburn head to the skies, and stood up.
He looked, at the tremendous darkness with its stars whitening up.
Now, in one fell swoop, he wanted to accomplish so great, so reputable things that
his entire life and memory, and his 7,5 pounder, he found small enough to cry.

The Captain asked:
-What time is it?
-Five
-So it's in half an hour...

98956 rifles
and all equipment
from the truck #3 of Ahmet the driver
to 7,5 pounder Schneider, to 15 pounder Howitzers,
and for the motherland,
that means, with their ability to die for the land and for freedom
First and Second Armies were ready for an ambush.

In twilight, the cavalryman with black, drooped moustache who was standing next to his gelding near a maple tree jumped on his horse with his short boots.

Nurettin Eşfak checked his watch:
-Five thirty...
And thus started with artillery fire and dawn the Grand Offensive


I took it upon myself to translate the part from Kuvayi Milliye Destanı from Nazım Hikmet, probably the most famous Turkish poet, and one who died in USSR in exile. In HoI3, he's a minister if the government becomes communist. The epic poem is about the war of independence. The part I tried to translate with my level of English is the part just before the final offensive begins. This book-long poem always gives me the goosebumps but I guess it loses some (most?) of its effect when translated. I think this captures a bit the atmosphere just before the offensive in game

no more Axis bombers appeared that night.

Vur Ha!

Or at least, that was the plan.

Uh oh

MAJGEN Diskoerekto would have to hold on as best he could against the shock attack.

Let them come!

while MAJGEN Diskoerekto’s attempt to delay the shock attack was negated and casualties were mounting, with 2 Mot Div yet to reinforce.

I should've ambushed, dammit why did I try to delay!!!

Sensing blood in Vrnograc, the Italians sent their bombers in again to harass Diskoerekto’s hard-pressed defenders at midday.

*shakes fist at the skies shouting incoherently

By 8am the answer was known: MAJGEN Diskoerekto’s men had held on by the slimmest of margins after four days of intense combat!

Vur Ha! Although this has been very costly, it was a very important location to keep and we needed every other division somewhere else so we had no choice but to hold the line. It was a last minute bayonet charge that dropped the final drop of morale Germans had.

The new Turkish general was learning quickly on the job!

Oh now I know why I didn't ambush earlier, I just learnt how to! (skill level 3 needed )

That was something! And it seems like we have around 15 divisions in the salient, so a lot of gas in the tank. Once the divisions are out of the 4 day post attack delay, the second wave will be even more fierce since there isn't a Sava to cross or dug-in opponents now. I'm hoping to come across already depleted divisions and an even higher momentum from now on. Great opening of a grand offensive, let's hope all goes well. Also, kudos to all the airmen who fight against impossible odds to keep the Krauts away from our troops on the ground. Vur Ha!

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Is there any point in building a navy at this point? I guess it depends how long you think it's going to take for you to either break through the Italians alps or how long Russia will take to push through Poland once the germans really get on the back foot.

 

[nuclearslurpee]

For some reason, notification of this update has slipped past my notifications. Damn forums...

Did want to respond to this before I lost my train of thought:

Expanding the Navy a bit is a good thing - and light cruisers are on the menu. But the problem with larger ships is not industry, but our prehistoric naval tech. And there's so much more important stuff to research in the meantime and never enough LS to do it. The alternative is building pre-WW1 vintage ships, which seems pretty naff. I'll think about CA, but for now it's not going to be a priority. I don't think I need them to help the Comintern win the overall war.

It's worth noting that a few license-built CLs are a good start. They'll certainly bolster our existing navy, and can form a decent base of screens if and when we can invest in some larger ships - even low-tech CVs would be highly effective if our light aircraft techs are kept up with (or can we license CAGs from our Comintern allies?). Plus, while in-game the CL practicals won't translate to CVs, in roleplaying terms it will help the nation re-develop some shipbuilding capabilities that can eventually be leveraged into capital ships.

Right, now to belatedly read this update...

 

[Bullfilter]

Noting the naval discussion and that I'll comment in detail in due course, here is some supplementary info on where things stand right now re naval development:

First, the destroyer license purchase was a two-unit serial one, so (by 30 April, when these shots were taken) the second new flotilla had been under construction for almost a month and will take a year to complete. I've seriously considered buying a light cruiser as well (US Worcester class available), but with the Soviet LL heavily cut, supply costs having ramped up (currently around 40%+ of IC) plus the offensive now in progress, with heavy air force usage, and new fighters being the priority, I just haven't found the priority to be there yet.

As mentioned, all capital ship tech is at absolute base levels. I'd have to do research just build any of them, let alone with any more than base components:

And here is the escort tree. At least I can build them, but that's it. The US licensed stuff is of course galactically better!

 

[nuclearslurpee]

S.I.T.H. (Secret Intelligence Technical Headquarters)

For a "technical" headquarters, there sure is an awful lot of black magic going on down there - and worse!

Air Damage Report. The Italian raids on Vrnograc were limited to 284 ground casualties once the Turkish interceptions took hold. They did not reappear for several days, once more allowing the river crossings to progress largely unhindered from the air.

This is surprising and a true testament to the scrappiness and efficacy of our brave air force pilots! To be able to drive back the Axis bombing raids, after so many brave men on the ground have lost their lives to this menace, is a true feat of greatness!

A day later, things were moving closer to a resolution. All sides were getting worn out, especially in Sisak, where both sides were weakening more quickly (especially 2 Pz Div), but 1 Inf Div remained strongest. In Bosanska Dubica, 1 Mar Div was holding up the best, closely followed by 15 Inf Div, while 7 Pz Div was still holding firmly. 4 US Mar Div and the Hungarian 13th Infantry were both close to the end of their tehter. The skies remained mercifully clear.

A bit of a surprise that the US expeditionary forces are the ones lagging behind their Turkish comrades in arms when it comes to staying power on the battlefield. Should be a major point of pride for the Union that our boys outperform the capitalist swine imperialist pigdogs Americans, a world-leading major power, in the field.

RE: the naval stuff this seems to confirm that, for the time being, license-building continues to be the optimal method of expansion. I can see that being true for quite some time, actually, especially as both USSR and USA will be happy to sell to Turkey to gain a potential ally while they stand off against each other across the globe in the post-war world...

 

[stnylan]

That is a pretty decent breakthrough, but much hard fighting still awaits. If nothing else though it should add to the strategic pressure on the Axis front

 

[roverS3]

even low-tech CVs would be highly effective if our light aircraft techs are kept up with (or can we license CAGs from our Comintern allies?). Plus, while in-game the CL practicals won't translate to CVs, in roleplaying terms it will help the nation re-develop some shipbuilding capabilities that can eventually be leveraged into capital ships.

imo, Turkey developing Carriers at this point seems pretty gamey. It would have to buy CAGs from other nations, so it doesn't even have the aeronautical technical know-how. The Turkish Navy is also an old institution, and with all of Turkey's shipping lanes close to land-based air support, there isn't a very convincing argument for developing this capacity, especially if the aim is to deploy base level Carriers. Turkey would be the mockery of the world for having such tiny and slow Carriers... For Turkey to field Carriers they can be proud of, and can impress with, they need to develop more modern ships, and that would be a lot more expensive than developing modern CA's. Due to the difficulty of the tech, due to the number of pre-requisite techs, and due to the lack of commonality with CLs.

First, the destroyer license purchase was a two-unit serial one, so (by 30 April, when these shots were taken) the second new flotilla had been under construction for almost a month and will take a year to complete. I've seriously considered buying a light cruiser as well (US Worc4ester class available), but with the Soviet LL heavily cut, supply costs having ramped up (currently around 40%+ of IC) plus the offensive now in progress, with heavy air force usage, and new fighters being the priority, I just haven't found the priority to be there yet.

I see, you're in a bit of a bind here. Once LL aid increases again, as the Soviet Union recovers lost parts of it's industrial base, I think a Light Cruiser needs to be on the shortlist, right behind another up to date wing of interceptors. Also, once that Destroyer flotilla is finished, the follow-up should also be a Light Cruiser, even if you don't get around to building capital ships, Light Cruisers are more durable, and more long range, allowing them to fill some of the peace-time functions that would normally be filled by a Heavy Cruiser.

As mentioned, all capital ship tech is at absolute base levels. I'd have to do research just build any of them, let alone with any more than base components:

Look at the bright side, you get to pick what you build, you're not stuck with a legacy. I don't understand why Turkey knows how to build a Battlecruiser, and not a Heavy Cruiser. Paradox? It's not like Turkey built a Battlecruiser within the previous two decades. SMS Goeben doesn't count, as they didn't build it, nor design it. I will stick to my guns and state that the cheapest way for Turkey to project naval power in the region is to design and build Heavy Cruisers, eventually. Once you start the ball rolling with CL's for Cruiser practical, and two-three research slots, it actually doesn't take that much time to develop a somewhat modern heavy cruiser. I'd suggest you start researching heavy cruisers only after you start building the first CL, and then subsequent levels of research will become gradually cheaper, also don't research AA for anything until the other techs are up to date, so you can start laying down hulls, and then you can still upgrade AA after the fact.

And here is the escort tree. At least I can build them, but that's it. The US licensed stuff is of course galactically better!

Obviously, just keep buying US licences, as long as they let you... If relations break down later, you'll have a bit more LS due to the ground you've taken, and you should then have sufficient Cruiser practical and naval design experience (if you went the CA route), to relatively quickly design an indigenous CL, once you need more escorts.

It's definitely a long term plan which will require some investment to be diverting from more immediate matters, but I think it's worth it.

 

[Wraith11B]

imo, Turkey developing Carriers at this point seems pretty gamey. It would have to buy CAGs from other nations, so it doesn't even have the aeronautical technical know-how. The Turkish Navy is also an old institution, and with all of Turkey's shipping lanes close to land-based air support, there isn't a very convincing argument for developing this capacity, especially if the aim is to deploy base level Carriers. Turkey would be the mockery of the world for having such tiny and slow Carriers... For Turkey to field Carriers they can be proud of, and can impress with, they need to develop more modern ships, and that would be a lot more expensive than developing modern CA's. Due to the difficulty of the tech, due to the number of pre-requisite techs, and due to the lack of commonality with CLs.

A bit of an issue with this, as almost all of the light carriers in the USN were from CL hulls (Independence-class)... in fact, only two light carriers were built from heavy cruiser hulls (Saipan-class); all CVEs were built from merchie hulls, and obviously aren't what we're looking for.

Furthermore, as the Italian RM can attest: being "in range of land-based air" is about the cheapest cop-out in history for not developing aircraft carriers. Until we have missiles that we can pack aboard ships, the most effective means of delivering precision fires is a bomb/torpedo from a flattop. Further, these vessels are range limited on visibility and can't see over the horizon to see those threats lurking over there; not to mention the constant question of how close is the nearest airfield and are the aircraft there suited for the operations we need them to be. I'd argue we need at least another flotilla of destroyers and three light cruisers plus a light flattop. Maybe the Americans would sell us some of their war surplus older hulls...

 

[roverS3]

A bit of an issue with this, as almost all of the light carriers in the USN were from CL hulls (Independence-class)... in fact, only two light carriers were built from heavy cruiser hulls (Saipan-class); all CVEs were built from merchie hulls, and obviously aren't what we're looking for.

OK. I was maybe a bit harsh, but beyond one (or two) basic CVL's I don't see Turkey having the means to develop serious fleet carriers, nor that they become the main fleet unit. Also on the lack of commonality, I was mostly talking about the game, were Carrier practical is entirely separate from all other practical knowledge. There is some commonality where doctrines are concerned though. I know that, IRL, there was commonality in hull designs, as with WW2 take-off distances you could build CV's, CVE's and CVL's on a variety of hull designs. CL's, CA's, BC's, large merchant vessels,... That said, looking towards the future, a CVL would be a very short-term solution, by the time it's hull is laid down, the Jet age will be knocking at the door. So, until STOVL planes become a thing, Turkey will be stuck flying small turboprops/helicopters off a tiny Carrier, unless it goes and builds full sized fleet Carriers. Maybe a conversion into some sort of LHD would be possible, that could be handy.

Furthermore, as the Italian RM can attest: being "in range of land-based air" is about the cheapest cop-out in history for not developing aircraft carriers. Until we have missiles that we can pack aboard ships, the most effective means of delivering precision fires is a bomb/torpedo from a flattop. Further, these vessels are range limited on visibility and can't see over the horizon to see those threats lurking over there; not to mention the constant question of how close is the nearest airfield and are the aircraft there suited for the operations we need them to be. I'd argue we need at least another flotilla of destroyers and three light cruisers plus a light flattop. Maybe the Americans would sell us some of their war surplus older hulls...

I agree that even with land-based Air cover, Carriers are useful, but that doesn't take away the need for some level of firepower. Your Carriers can't be everywhere. You still need some 8" Gunned Cruisers for trade protection, diplomacy, shore bombardment of fortified positions, etc. You can build more of them for the same amount of IC/money (if you add Cruiser Practical and the construction of CL's to the calculation), they're also much faster and longer ranged than the in-game CVLs. The only way you could simulate the US selling Turkey a surplus CVL, which is something they would do, if only to annoy the British, would be to tag to the US, and send (one of) it's oldest CVL('s) to Turkey as an expeditionary force. Naval expeditionary forces are a mess though, so I would avoid that possibility. Of course, you could probably go into the game files and conjure up a 'new' Turkish CVL that you simultaneously conjured away from the US.

 

[nuclearslurpee]

You still need some 8" Gunned Cruisers for trade protection, diplomacy, shore bombardment of fortified positions, etc.

I don't understand this continued fascination with heavy cruisers. The ship class itself exists presently largely due to the pressures of the Washington and London naval treaties, as ways to maximize firepower while meeting tonnage requirements. I don't see how such a ship has a place in a modern navy, particularly in what is shaping up to be a post-war world dominated by airpower-heavy USA and UK fleets.

Right now we have fleet roles for destroyers as anti-submarine and anti-air platforms, and following from that a natural role for modern light cruisers as "screen killers" with the gun caliber and firepower to protect other ships from (or hunt down on the attack) enemy destroyers and even cruisers.

What role do heavy cruisers fill? The conventional pre-war models are essentially the same as the light cruisers in terms of armor, etc. with the only salient difference being the guns, and if 6-inch guns are performant against such targets then why bother mounting a heavier gun that is more unwieldy and makes the ship more top-heavy and less seaworthy? If we consider a heavy cruiser to be a "cruiser-killer" with heavier armor and heavier guns...well, we've just invented the battlecruiser, and so we may as well build those and take advantage of a larger size to design a more capable vessel overall. In either case, I see no reason (in-game performance of Cruizerg fleets aside) to build a mid-size ship that splits the difference, so to speak, and call it a capital ship.

Of course, the problems with battlecruisers and even battleships are by now well-documented from wartime experiences, which leaves carriers of some kind or another as the only viable path for capital ships, however "embarrassing" the early models might be once we've built them.

Turkey would be the mockery of the world for having such tiny and slow Carriers...

I must disagree. While, yes, the first carrier(s) we deploy will hardly be the envy of the world, being only the third naval power able to field a fleet carrier in the post-war world (after the UK and USA; France and Japan will not have any grounds to talk!) is hardly worth mockery. And with regards to the former two powers...well, frankly there is no way Turkey can create a fleet even remotely capable of standing against either of these giants within at least the next decade, so there is no point in assessing any plan for a Turkish navy in that light. However, matched against anyone else in the world, even a fairly outdated carrier model will stand as a powerful core to build our primary task force around, particularly if the planes on that carrier are far more modern and the lack of technical advancement of the ship itself is secondary at most.

I can envision a near-postwar core fleet of 1 CV, 3 modern CLs (license-built, for now...), and perhaps two modern DD flotillas, which forms enough of a strike force for imposing commerce defense as well as supporting littoral operations against coastal targets in conjunction with our rapidly-maturing Marine Corps. To supplement this I further envision perhaps two small CL+DD task forces for commerce defense and a perhaps using our older cruisers as single-vessel patrols in the ensuing peacetime period, to show the flag and deter extra-national raiders. Again, this is nothing against the mighty UK or USA fleets, but is more than sufficient to carry out defensive and power-projection missions against anyone else in the world who dares to antagonize the Glorious Union. Vur ha!

 

[roverS3]

I don't understand this continued fascination with heavy cruisers. The ship class itself exists presently largely due to the pressures of the Washington and London naval treaties, as ways to maximize firepower while meeting tonnage requirements. I don't see how such a ship has a place in a modern navy, particularly in what is shaping up to be a post-war world dominated by airpower-heavy USA and UK fleets.

For me, the post-war Heavy Cruiser is a flexible platform that's not too expensive to build, something like a 21st century Frigate. Guns, sure, but due to it's size (larger than a light cruiser), it can more feasibly be converted to support a large Helicopter hangar, missiles, larger radar systems, and the like. In the meantime, it can be festooned with modern radar-guided AA weaponry alongside it's relatively big guns to give it some protection from the air. It can operate solo, or with a few escorts, on long range missions. It doesn't need the kind of massive supply train a Battleship or Carrier would, so it's relatively cheap to run.

What role do heavy cruisers fill? The conventional pre-war models are essentially the same as the light cruisers in terms of armor, etc. with the only salient difference being the guns, and if 6-inch guns are performant against such targets then why bother mounting a heavier gun that is more unwieldy and makes the ship more top-heavy and less seaworthy? If we consider a heavy cruiser to be a "cruiser-killer" with heavier armor and heavier guns...well, we've just invented the battlecruiser, and so we may as well build those and take advantage of a larger size to design a more capable vessel overall. In either case, I see no reason (in-game performance of Cruizerg fleets aside) to build a mid-size ship that splits the difference, so to speak, and call it a capital ship.

I agree that in-game, Heavy Cruisers are overpowered, which is also one of the reasons why I suggested them. There is the limitation of dry dock size, which probably means we can build more CA's than BC's over the same time-span regardless of budget. Basically it's both a poor man's Battleship/Battlecruiser, and a jumped up commerce-raider / Commerce-protection ship / peacetime presence ship. From a diplomacy point of view, it is likely a Turkish Heavy Cruiser will be the largest ship to regularly visit most harbours in the region (outside of British ships), that also sends a message. It's necessary to ingrain it into everyone's minds that the Turkish Navy is second only to the British in the Med, the Western Indian Ocean, the Black Sea, the Persian gulf, and the Red Sea. Maybe a single Carrier, or two, would help with that, but how often are people going to see this Carrier, outside of a few major ports? And then, when something minor happens, there's always a Turkish Cruiser nearby, preferably an impressive one. With a single Carrier Task Force, it'll take at least a week to properly respond to even relatively minor events.

I must disagree. While, yes, the first carrier(s) we deploy will hardly be the envy of the world, being only the third naval power able to field a fleet carrier in the post-war world (after the UK and USA; France and Japan will not have any grounds to talk!) is hardly worth mockery. And with regards to the former two powers...well, frankly there is no way Turkey can create a fleet even remotely capable of standing against either of these giants within at least the next decade, so there is no point in assessing any plan for a Turkish navy in that light. However, matched against anyone else in the world, even a fairly outdated carrier model will stand as a powerful core to build our primary task force around, particularly if the planes on that carrier are far more modern and the lack of technical advancement of the ship itself is secondary at most.

Yes. So, walk with me here. Our main regional rival after the war is bound to be the UK. There is no way we can match the power of the main UK Carrier Fleets. But, the RN Carriers can't be everywhere. The UK's war effort is heavily dependent on it's ability to keep up it's trade within the empire, and to keep it's troops supplied. You have 2 options here:
1. Try to out-British the British. Build a Carrier Task Force, and use light cruisers and DDs for trade protection. The result is that the higher numbers of the British planes
2. Fight asymmetrically, spread out small task forces, or even single ships to raid British trade routes. Ideally, you want ships that are large enough to easily deal with common escorting ships like Destroyers, and old cruisers, but small enough that losing one or two isn't going to loose you the war because they're relatively cheap to build. The seas are massive, so even with hundreds of aeroplanes on patrol, it's likely your Heavy Cruisers will be able to slip through the net quite a few times before they are found.

I can envision a near-postwar core fleet of 1 CV, 3 modern CLs (license-built, for now...), and perhaps two modern DD flotillas, which forms enough of a strike force for imposing commerce defense as well as supporting littoral operations against coastal targets in conjunction with our rapidly-maturing Marine Corps. To supplement this I further envision perhaps two small CL+DD task forces for commerce defense and a perhaps using our older cruisers as single-vessel patrols in the ensuing peacetime period, to show the flag and deter extra-national raiders. Again, this is nothing against the mighty UK or USA fleets, but is more than sufficient to carry out defensive and power-projection missions against anyone else in the world who dares to antagonize the Glorious Union. Vur ha!

This makes sense when you know you're not going to be facing the UK. This kind of fleet is good for regional dominance if the UK doesn't have a strong presence in your region. But the UK, especially with it's current North-African success is going to have a large presence in the region, thus, maybe we need to take that into consideration instead of pushing it to the side, because 'we'll never win against them'. We don't need to win against them, we just need to make it too costly for them to continue what will probably be an unpopular colonial war. Considering Turkey's hypothetical post-war size, it will most likely outnumber and/or outmatch other navies in the region (save for the RN) regardless of whether it deploys Carriers or a larger number of surface combattants.
Regardless of the above considerations, the continued development of a robust amphibious warfare capability is vital.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Guys, guys, you're all talking about a postwar navy where turkey rules the Medand owns as much of its coastline as possible on all sides. Then sure it makes sense to have some carriers, battleships whatever to patrol the sea, the straits and probably south of the suez. Right now, we're in the middle of a colossal ground war and still can't compete with the axis in the air. Meanwhile the entire Axis naval forces combined have been sent into the drink by the British. There's no point in building anything except escorts for potential naval landings on the Italian peninsula for at least the next year.

For a "technical" headquarters, there sure is an awful lot of black magic going on down there - and worse!

A bit of a surprise that the US expeditionary forces are the ones lagging behind their Turkish comrades in arms when it comes to staying power on the battlefield. Should be a major point of pride for the Union that our boys outperform the capitalist swine imperialist pigdogs Americans, a world-leading major power, in the field.

I smell collaborator traitor.

 

[roverS3]

Guys, guys, you're all talking about a postwar navy where turkey rules the Med and owns as much of its coastline as possible on all sides. Then sure it makes sense to have some carriers, battleships whatever to patrol the sea, the straits and probably south of the suez. Right now, we're in the middle of a colossal ground war and still can't compete with the axis in the air. Meanwhile the entire Axis naval forces combined have been sent into the drink by the British. There's no point in building anything except escorts for potential naval landings on the Italian peninsula for at least the next year.

We don't need to build capital ships now, we need to start designing them, so that when the war is over, we can build them and start patrolling the seas. If we only start thinking about the shape of our post-war navy once the war is over, it'll take years before we build anything that's close to competitive with French ships, let alone British, ships. That's a long time for the seas not to be adequately patrolled, especially when we consider that our future naval rivals already have plenty of ships ready to go, and modern designs ready to be built. And that's in game, IRL it can take a decade or more to design a new navy and start building it. Considering the pitiful state of our own Naval industry, the only way we can make sure to keep the lands we're conquering, is to start designing now, and to get as much inspiration as possible from the licensed escorts we're building. That way we can actually build a modern navy immediately after the war, while the other naval powers are still licking their wounds. Hopefully, by the time they're willing and ready to challenge the status quo, we'll be ready. Considering our limited leadership base, we need to make strong choices to even stand a chance at success. We can't develop Battleships, and Carriers, and Cruisers at the same time, so we need to choose soon.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

We don't need to build capital ships now, we need to start designing them, so that when the war is over, we can build them and start patrolling the seas. If we only start thinking about the shape of our post-war navy once the war is over, it'll take years before we build anything that's close to competitive with French ships, let alone British, ships. That's a long time for the seas not to be adequately patrolled, especially when we consider that our future naval rivals already have plenty of ships ready to go, and modern designs ready to be built. And that's in game, IRL it can take a decade or more to design a new navy and start building it. Considering the pitiful state of our own Naval industry, the only way we can make sure to keep the lands we're conquering, is to start designing now, and to get as much inspiration as possible from the licensed escorts we're building. That way we can actually build a modern navy immediately after the war, while the other naval powers are still licking their wounds. Hopefully, by the time they're willing and ready to challenge the status quo, we'll be ready. Considering our limited leadership base, we need to make strong choices to even stand a chance at success. We can't develop Battleships, and Carriers, and Cruisers at the same time, so we need to choose soon.

Remember who the post war powers will be. Russia on one end, US on the other. UK is looking like a strong contender for a strongish independent power but the rest of Europe for the next decade is going to be in our Sphere of influence or Russia's. Of these: Germany won't have a navy/will contribute to Russia's North Sea fleet. Italy will either be ours or a puppet. France will probably be an independant socialist republic and so alongside with the UK are going to be the other naval power in the med. Russia honestly would probably prefer us to handle the med rather than them since they already have to cover the Atlantic, the North Sea and the Far East by themselves. The Americans would much rather we are the naval power in the med (with lots of their bought tech and ships) to balance out the communists. And there's no way we can compete with UK if they wanted to try, but postwar they'll have their own problems such as all their colonial possesions now bordering an unfriendly communist French empire that also has shares in suez. Heck, they might even try to balance France out with us.

We are so behind on tech and industrial base that we need to build both of those up first before We lay down hulls. And we can only really plan to do most of these expansions and improvements because of the current war effort. Basically afternoon the war there's going to be a massive scramble for turkey to take a Great Leap Forward out of secondary power status. We can plan for that now, like with researching new ships and figuring out where we want the infrastructure to go, but can't actually build yet. I get we need to start thinking and designing a modern fleet now, but that doesn't mean we need to build a second rate one as well.

 

[nuclearslurpee]

For me, the post-war Heavy Cruiser is a flexible platform that's not too expensive to build, something like a 21st century Frigate. Guns, sure, but due to it's size (larger than a light cruiser), it can more feasibly be converted to support a large Helicopter hangar, missiles, larger radar systems, and the like. In the meantime, it can be festooned with modern radar-guided AA weaponry alongside it's relatively big guns to give it some protection from the air. It can operate solo, or with a few escorts, on long range missions. It doesn't need the kind of massive supply train a Battleship or Carrier would, so it's relatively cheap to run.


I agree that in-game, Heavy Cruisers are overpowered, which is also one of the reasons why I suggested them. There is the limitation of dry dock size, which probably means we can build more CA's than BC's over the same time-span regardless of budget. Basically it's both a poor man's Battleship/Battlecruiser, and a jumped up commerce-raider / Commerce-protection ship / peacetime presence ship. From a diplomacy point of view, it is likely a Turkish Heavy Cruiser will be the largest ship to regularly visit most harbours in the region (outside of British ships), that also sends a message. It's necessary to ingrain it into everyone's minds that the Turkish Navy is second only to the British in the Med, the Western Indian Ocean, the Black Sea, the Persian gulf, and the Red Sea. Maybe a single Carrier, or two, would help with that, but how often are people going to see this Carrier, outside of a few major ports? And then, when something minor happens, there's always a Turkish Cruiser nearby, preferably an impressive one. With a single Carrier Task Force, it'll take at least a week to properly respond to even relatively minor events.


Yes. So, walk with me here. Our main regional rival after the war is bound to be the UK. There is no way we can match the power of the main UK Carrier Fleets. But, the RN Carriers can't be everywhere. The UK's war effort is heavily dependent on it's ability to keep up it's trade within the empire, and to keep it's troops supplied. You have 2 options here:
1. Try to out-British the British. Build a Carrier Task Force, and use light cruisers and DDs for trade protection. The result is that the higher numbers of the British planes
2. Fight asymmetrically, spread out small task forces, or even single ships to raid British trade routes. Ideally, you want ships that are large enough to easily deal with common escorting ships like Destroyers, and old cruisers, but small enough that losing one or two isn't going to loose you the war because they're relatively cheap to build. The seas are massive, so even with hundreds of aeroplanes on patrol, it's likely your Heavy Cruisers will be able to slip through the net quite a few times before they are found.



This makes sense when you know you're not going to be facing the UK. This kind of fleet is good for regional dominance if the UK doesn't have a strong presence in your region. But the UK, especially with it's current North-African success is going to have a large presence in the region, thus, maybe we need to take that into consideration instead of pushing it to the side, because 'we'll never win against them'. We don't need to win against them, we just need to make it too costly for them to continue what will probably be an unpopular colonial war. Considering Turkey's hypothetical post-war size, it will most likely outnumber and/or outmatch other navies in the region (save for the RN) regardless of whether it deploys Carriers or a larger number of surface combattants.
Regardless of the above considerations, the continued development of a robust amphibious warfare capability is vital.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

I believe we have a difference of strategic goals here. I don't see the Turkish navy as being even remotely competitive against the Royal Navy anytime in the next two or three decades let alone in a few years. In my view, the optimal approach to facing off against the UK is not to. Turkey is in the unique position that all three of the non-Axis major powers prefer to keep Turkey on their good sides as we are shaping up to be the fulcrum of the post-war world order. Thus, diplomatic pressure is the key to keeping the UK and for that matter USA/USSR in check, not armed naval power. Thus, the goal of a post-war Turkish navy should be twofold: to develop a core fleet capable of easily defeating any other, minor naval opponent (which a CV fleet is optimal for, even with outdated carrier tech); and cruiser-based commerce defense for which light cruisers with or without destroyer escorts are more than optimal.

Guys, guys, you're all talking about a postwar navy where turkey rules the Medand owns as much of its coastline as possible on all sides. Then sure it makes sense to have some carriers, battleships whatever to patrol the sea, the straits and probably south of the suez. Right now, we're in the middle of a colossal ground war and still can't compete with the axis in the air. Meanwhile the entire Axis naval forces combined have been sent into the drink by the British. There's no point in building anything except escorts for potential naval landings on the Italian peninsula for at least the next year.

I fully agree here, however it is also important as my colleague has noted to plan for the future. For the present, of course, we must focus on building up sufficient large escort vessels to support amphibious operations, but we must also begin to think about the future as realistically this war will be over at least in Europe within, I would say, two years. Not a lot of time to pivot on.

 

[Bullfilter]

Just saying, I love the naval development debate occurring in the Ataturk Institute of Strategic Studies! The War Ministry is following closely.

I would note though, as a general principle I’ve enunciated and implemented throughout, I am playing this as a game with a limited time scope. In a narrative sense, I’ll happily discuss/speculate about the post-game world, but will not make concrete production or technical decisions based on that.

Note however, I said said post-game, not post-current war. There is no guarantee the Comintern (at Turkey’s in-game contrivance) will go to war with the Allies (ie UK, Commonwealth and miscellaneous countries). It would only happen if that was the only way to achieve the Comintern World Order victory criteria (12 objectives) in a reasonable time. But it might be necessary - a limited war, for limited objectives.

So the strategic discussion to have is whether, in game, there is a realistic likelihood of a limited GW2.1 against the UK, possibly some time in or after 1945/46. If there is, what might we need to achieve the last couple of objectives? At which time there would be (to rationalise the end of the war) an agreed peace along extant lines. Therefor, for example, no need to invade the UK or do anything much more than keep them at bay in the Med, the Middle East or India long enough to get there.

The credible contingencies arising from the answers to these strategic questions would drive any in-game research and production priorities. What might happen after that will be left to the next (hypothetical) generation of the UGNR leadership. If this was a Civ-like game that extended there, then of course we might be forced to start making such decisions sooner.

Perhaps, after the second April ‘43 update, Inonu will convene another Cabinet meeting to review longer term priorities, in light of the stimulating debate currently under way.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

As I've said a few times, and as others have said before and right now in the naval debate, turkey is going to end this war as a secondary power with the lands, population and potential resources of a great power. How/if they manage to get from one to the other without losing everything or being attacked is the interesting question. However, as many have also suggested, Turkey is in prime position to play all the other great powers off one another if they do it right. It actually benefits the US and USSR to have so much strategically important land and resources under the care of one government that they know they can work with and that is also (realistically) never going to challenge them for true top tier status. This is going to become even more important when's it becomes clear how much oil Turkey is sitting on in a few decades.

So in terms of future planning, which I agree we should do in chat, if not in game, we have to remember the basics:

1) whatever happens, turkey is incapable of being a great power as it currently is. A massive amount of work is going to have to go into reinforcing the government, control and relations with the various republics in the union, fixing our backwater and backwards tech level, and super industrialising infrastructure.

2) this all being said, unless turkey manages to grab Italy for itself, the vast majority of the tech and engineering know how and structures will be bought from outside. Domestally, the country has little to go on in terms of having a modern army, and that's something it's spent the last decade solidly improving and experienced with. Modernising everything else is going to take either an absurd amount of time or paying various prices to get the Russians and Americans to do it.

3) The 'Union' is weak and held together by military might and fear of SITH. Even with the above two points, making the union actually work is going to be the hardest and most important thing for turkey. Because if it collapses, all our bargaining power goes with it. Figuring out how to keep the Balkans pacified and governing is the key. If we can manage that, everyone including the British will move heaven and earth to at least keep turkey from collapsing just because we keep Eastern Europe in check.

So, that all being said, I would say it's fairly clear that Turkey does need to start thinking about its future but also not sweat too much on individual stuff like modernising the navy. They need to modernise everything and the world has a vested interest in helping them do it. The only naval power that could possibly be worse than friendly neutral to us is the UK, and we aren't catching up with them. What far more important now is making sure we get Italy either in the union or firmly puppeted in our sphere. That's the only thing that both affects the post war, after end of aar stuff and the actual aar. That and perhaps trying to get Vichy France into the war so we can nick syria before they go communist.

 

[GangsterSynod]

I think America might still do a version of the Marshall Plan after the war to make sure that Turkey stays politically stable and doesn't fully align with the USSR, so I'm not sure how much Turkey would actually need to buy in future. Still, it would take a very long time for them to modernize, and if Ottomanism didn't work, I can't see any Turkish effort being any better at cementing a unionist identity on the republics.

 

[roverS3]

I believe we have a difference of strategic goals here. I don't see the Turkish navy as being even remotely competitive against the Royal Navy anytime in the next two or three decades let alone in a few years. In my view, the optimal approach to facing off against the UK is not to. Turkey is in the unique position that all three of the non-Axis major powers prefer to keep Turkey on their good sides as we are shaping up to be the fulcrum of the post-war world order. Thus, diplomatic pressure is the key to keeping the UK and for that matter USA/USSR in check, not armed naval power. Thus, the goal of a post-war Turkish navy should be twofold: to develop a core fleet capable of easily defeating any other, minor naval opponent (which a CV fleet is optimal for, even with outdated carrier tech); and cruiser-based commerce defense for which light cruisers with or without destroyer escorts are more than optimal.

As I've said a few times, and as others have said before and right now in the naval debate, turkey is going to end this war as a secondary power with the lands, population and potential resources of a great power. How/if they manage to get from one to the other without losing everything or being attacked is the interesting question. However, as many have also suggested, Turkey is in prime position to play all the other great powers off one another if they do it right. It actually benefits the US and USSR to have so much strategically important land and resources under the care of one government that they know they can work with and that is also (realistically) never going to challenge them for true top tier status. This is going to become even more important when's it becomes clear how much oil Turkey is sitting on in a few decades.

I think America might still do a version of the Marshall Plan after the war to make sure that Turkey stays politically stable and doesn't fully align with the USSR, so I'm not sure how much Turkey would actually need to buy in future. Still, it would take a very long time for them to modernize, and if Ottomanism didn't work, I can't see any Turkish effort being any better at cementing a unionist identity on the republics.

Maybe I have been naive in assuming that Turkey would maintain very close ties with the Soviet Union, as in both our nation's darkest hour, we were there for each other. We shared a common front, two even, and our soldiers spilled their blood together before the Americans, or the British, came to help us out with cash and weapons, and long before the US sent it's token expeditionary force of Marines. Going from the supposition that Turkey remains in the Comintern, and that the Soviet Union remains it's closest ally, through thick and thin, it makes sense for me that Turkey would concentrate on Naval development, as that's probably the weakest point of the Soviet armaments industry. In case Turkey finds itself in a war, the Red Army would send more than sufficient forces to help on land, and in the air, but the Red Navy would be incapable of sending much more than a single fleet of old badly maintained ships. Turkey's armed forces can also continue to buy licences for anything they want in the Soviet arsenal, at bargain prices. As Turkey's new empire will be much more dependent on seaborne trade than the Soviet Union, they have more of a need for a modern navy, so the division of labour becomes self-evident. Two are stronger than one, the Soviet Union can help Turkey become a major power in it's own right, second only to the Soviet Union itself, as long as Turkey develops it's own Navy.

My mistake has thus been that of trusting that Turkey would be willing to go to war with the Capitalists and the Western Imperialists before it betrayed it's big bear friend. If Turkey takes a bunch more American money, especially when there are conditions attached to that money, and if it's navy cosies up with the Royal Navy to keep the peace in the Med, I will be a bit sad that our nation's bonds, which have been forged in blood, will have been sacrificed to pragmatism, imperialism, and capitalism. I'm not usually such an idealist, but as a liaison officer I have seen the greatness that can be achieved when the Soviet Union and the UGNR work together on (near-)equal terms, no holds barred. Dare I say, this old spy has grown a bit sentimental. Oh dear, I hope I'm not going to die soon... that's what often happens when spies grow sentimental.

SkitalecS3