Mandate needs to be buffed. There is no practical way to keep mandate positive. The mechanic needed a buff badly since 1.21 but for some reason it received a nerf that makes little sense for 1.24.
Taking the Mandate should not ruin your game!
- Thread starter Sukramo
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It's even more difficult to take Mandate since 1.24 because Ming will now cancel your tributary status and, depending on AE, you might be stuck with an eternal coalition.
It was an achivement run to take all of China and some of the Stepps. Russia was never on my goal list, nor was it in my power since Russia-Ottomans have been allied for 150+ years and love each other and both rival me, even while having claims of Russia in Ottoman hands.
Persian land is not useless and it allowed me to get the men needed to beat Ming.
No, its not hypocritical because that mechanic has to exist that way in order to make Ming beatable. But its a way out of proportional mechanic to have the Mechanic designed to make Ming not god tier OP, nerf me in the exact same way. I'm not 1444 god tier Ming. Why the hell would the "reward" of EoC end up killing my Empire? Its illogical.
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I havnt played Ming or EoC recently, is it possible to DOW that russia to force tributary at 80% WS?
I think taking the title should give you free reign for few years (5 or 10) when you don't lose Mandate, because of small number of tributaries. Also maybe add a modifer that does not count countries you have truce with as non-tributaries (Ming has a lot of development and (if they exist) can tank a lot of Mandate).
It is but by the time you take the Mandate, its far too late with low Mandate spawning rebels all over and Russia-Ottomans-Japan outnumbering me badly. The way Russia colonizes, you cant just give away border lands either since hes all over Siberia.
Never mind having to break my alliances and turn on them too to tributary them aswell. The game treats me like I'm 1444 Ming which I am defintly not. We are not comparable yet are being treated the same way by the awful Mandate mechanic.
This isn’t possible mechanically in the game as it is.
Could you provide evidence on how it is historically plausible? Or is this based purely on what you think makes sense in your mind?
Ok, we can look at China herself.
Yuan tolerated Christianity and Islam, but did not force it on anyone. It was far from the state religion.
Ming outright banned Christianity because the Emperor would not acknowledge the pope as an authority.
Qing originally tolerated Christianity and Islam, but made it illegal for Manchu and Han Chinese to convert, in part due to Christianity not being wholly compatible with Confucion ideals and honoring ancestors (as it was idolatry), before completely banning them in 1704.
From this information, I feel that the you can harmonize with Christianity and Islam at best, but trying to force the state religion on a largely Confucion people who have always lived as those who must honor their Ancestors to be problematic at best, or a complete loss of Mandate at worse. Christian and Islamic doctrine do not fit with the idea of the China’s version of divine Mandate.
“It’s bad game design to make a mechanic apply to everyone the same and follow consistent rules, but is good design to penalize a tag for the sake of being that tag who is rightfully the Emperor Of China at the start of the game. A usurper would certainly not be held to the same standards as the original emperor”
I presented a solution in my first post, and it seems that people have either agreed or come up with very similar solutions. You don’t need to remind me of this thread’s purpose. I’m not arguing the “Why” so much as the “how”
An idea to make the Empire a better option to take, without boosting it too heavily, would be to change its bonuses/effects as well.
I suggest adding a modifier (or unique casus belli) that allows forcing tributary status at 50% of current WS cost, and give a significant bonus for neighbours/Asians accepting tributary status. This should make it faster to get up and running with new tributaries to salvage the Mandate, similarly to the suggested grace period. To compensate for this boon, remove/change the 10% RCC decree and reform and replace it with a 15% increased coring cost.
Perhaps the reform could be a changed to a cb like above, one that doesn't require the target to be a neighbour of China. To avoid insanity, relax it to "borders any tributary".
Numbers must of course be balanced, they are just ballpark figures on what I thought might work. The plan is to make the EoC a dubious choice for vast blobbing, but a potentially optimal decision for changing into a taller playstyle with lots of tributaries, once the initial hurdles are cleared. Expanding would still be possible, just discouraged.
I suggest adding a modifier (or unique casus belli) that allows forcing tributary status at 50% of current WS cost, and give a significant bonus for neighbours/Asians accepting tributary status. This should make it faster to get up and running with new tributaries to salvage the Mandate, similarly to the suggested grace period. To compensate for this boon, remove/change the 10% RCC decree and reform and replace it with a 15% increased coring cost.
Perhaps the reform could be a changed to a cb like above, one that doesn't require the target to be a neighbour of China. To avoid insanity, relax it to "borders any tributary".
Numbers must of course be balanced, they are just ballpark figures on what I thought might work. The plan is to make the EoC a dubious choice for vast blobbing, but a potentially optimal decision for changing into a taller playstyle with lots of tributaries, once the initial hurdles are cleared. Expanding would still be possible, just discouraged.
IMO reformed tribal mandate should be different than chinese, more focused on domination in chinese aristocracy , keeping mandate low should mean separatism grown of chinese people (even if it didn't exist anymore) and less manpower/good produce gain but only from chinese provinces, and with standard bonuses for +50 mandate (but unrest also for chinese provinces). Or something like that it's just an idea
You are getting off topic with the religion discussion. My point is that Kublai could have formed the Yuan dynasty had he and his family converted to Islam. Also nothing would have magically stopped the Sunni Timur from forming his own dynasty or a succesful Christian Japan. Therefore the religious restriction are absurd. All religions should be able to take the Mandate.
Realistically I do not want Ming singled out for penalties that only he gets. But it is the only way to balance his absurd 1444 starting position, then so be it. And it should only be him. Right now taking the Mandate is 50% war score for a button that says "CLICK HERE TO GET PUNISHED HARD!". I will happily take Ming getting selective penalties that no one else gets over that any day. Everyone else gets to go on a journey to decide how their rule over China will look. Qing cannot thirve with the current setup (especially if its an AI country) and that is terrible for histocial accuracy.
No, you did not provide a "solution" in your first post. It was basically a long classic "I like the status quo so let's not really change anything." You even contradict yourself because you claimed you wanted EoC to be good to be, (indicating its currently not, which ofc I agree with) but you only offered one minor change to religion harmonization. You failed to provide proper solutions yourself to the goal you yourself states that you wanted (making EoC worth taking to be a bonus). I need you to step up and provide real ways to reach that goal. You dont like my ideas? (that the majority of people in the thread likes) Fine, then give us your ideas on how to fix it. I'm waiting.
I think if you nerf the consequences of holding the mandate for Non-Chinese you need to nerf the benefits as well. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Can we at least agree that whoever takes the Mandate from another country should NOT get penalties due to Tributaries and Devastation for at least a grace period of 5-10 years immediately after, so you have time to maneuver? And perhaps keep the reforms on takeover?
Aside from adjusting mandate gain/loss values, countries that have truce with EoC shouldn't count against mandate loss. The grace period is a good idea, but it should be a lot longer as there would be way too many wars to wage for a new EoC. Making the force tributary war score less for EoC is also a good idea.
I am confused, weren´t you the one that asked for the EoC to have +10 unrest? I said it would be a huge mistake because on top of making Ming a paper tiger (and erase them from the map in a heart beat) it would make playing as the EoC without proper gameplay (which btw is very different from all the other nations) extremely tedious/annoying at best. Paradox decided to give in to the forum experts’ demands (at least partially) and gave the EoC "only" +5 unrest and now here you are complaining again. Be careful with what you wish for I guess.While I do appreciate Paradox atleast nerfing Ming (even if Ming is still making mercs at 0 Mandate, something he shouldnt be able to do with 100% less mercs), we need to discuss changes to how someone else taking the Mandate and being judged by the game works.
So this is my Mongolia into Yuan game for "Back in Control":
It's nothing special but it was a fun run. The problem? My Empire is rapidly falling apart because I took the Mandate. Replacing Horde unity for Mandate that drops like a rock for bordering people and Meritocracy that I cant keep up due to advisors being too expensive.
Does this really make sense, from a gameplay or historical perspective?
From a gameplay side, I killed myself with rebels when taking the Mandate, something that is supposed to be a reward.
From a historical perspective, does it make sense that with just one act my Khan's armies and administration completly transform due to one little edict?
The problem is that the system is balanced around Ming, and Ming alone. It took my poor Mongolia 200 years to outdo Ming's starting position, but im being judged just as harshly for failure to pacify all my neighbors?
We need to separate how we treat Ming from smaller nations managing to take the Mandate! It should be a boon, not a curse! I gained virtually nothing from taking it, but killed myself slowly.
Some suggestions for fixing this so Mandate is a reward to strive for:
-Only Ming gets penalty for non-tributaries to Mandate.
-The reforms made by Ming are kept by new takers. You are adopting his administration.
-Let all Religions take the Mandate. Honestly this is just dumb. Would Kublai Khan have been unable to start a dynasty if he was Muslim or Christian? Absurd. Timur wanted to attack China. Maybe start a dynasty? Nope, he's Muslim, no can do!
-Don't autoforce the person taking the Mandate into Celestrial Empire. Give options and events for becoming more like it over time.
-Religion. I feel something special should be here for easier dealing with the multitudes of Tengri, Buddhists, Confucian and Muslims you will rule over. Yes, there is an even for going Confucian but I feel it should harmonize all religions you have in your realm before going in. Or give a massive boost to harmony so you can start harmonizing much faster.
I just feel sad seeing my Yuan die. Yes, I got the achivement and was done anyway. But it feels terrible to leave this dying friend behind. All because I had to take Mandate. In a real game I would never do it. Paradox, please make mandate worth taking and not a suicide pill!
Regardless and because I want this post to be constructive if you want to succeed as the EoC and you are open to learn some stuff (instead of only complaining) I suggest you watch/speed watch this series for the general strat on how to play as the EoC.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/202296909
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Oh. Didn't even realize they made that change until Ming threw me out as a blobbed Nepal. Only for then to ally me for four years, then breaking the alliance and wanting me to be a tributary again, at least for a while until they kicked me out again.. just to ally me again.
That kept going on and on for about 20 years until it got too stupid and I attacked them.
But I have no intention of ever taking the mandate ever. it's a death sentence. Always. I took it as Khazan to form Yuan and then immediately quit the game because screw all of that.
Did Ming historically defend its tributaries from foreign aggressors?
Maybe change it so EoC isn't called into wars against tributaries, but allow for them to form military alliances with tributaries (so they could both call into offensive and defensive wars)?
Maybe change it so EoC isn't called into wars against tributaries, but allow for them to form military alliances with tributaries (so they could both call into offensive and defensive wars)?
I dunno about Token Tributaries but I think a lot of EoC players would be down for allies being treated as null. You gain no mandate from them and you lose nothing from them. Certainly nicer than the current status where right before you take the throne you have to suddenly release vassals or tributes all along your ally's border. "Oh I decided I hate your face now, here have this new vassal as a buffer".