Taking the Mandate should not ruin your game!

[Sukramo]

While I do appreciate Paradox atleast nerfing Ming (even if Ming is still making mercs at 0 Mandate, something he shouldnt be able to do with 100% less mercs), we need to discuss changes to how someone else taking the Mandate and being judged by the game works.

So this is my Mongolia into Yuan game for "Back in Control":

It's nothing special but it was a fun run. The problem? My Empire is rapidly falling apart because I took the Mandate. Replacing Horde unity for Mandate that drops like a rock for bordering people and Meritocracy that I cant keep up due to advisors being too expensive.

Does this really make sense, from a gameplay or historical perspective?

From a gameplay side, I killed myself with rebels when taking the Mandate, something that is supposed to be a reward.

From a historical perspective, does it make sense that with just one act my Khan's armies and administration completly transform due to one little edict?

The problem is that the system is balanced around Ming, and Ming alone. It took my poor Mongolia 200 years to outdo Ming's starting position, but im being judged just as harshly for failure to pacify all my neighbors?

We need to separate how we treat Ming from smaller nations managing to take the Mandate! It should be a boon, not a curse! I gained virtually nothing from taking it, but killed myself slowly.

Some suggestions for fixing this so Mandate is a reward to strive for:

-Only Ming gets penalty for non-tributaries to Mandate.

-The reforms made by Ming are kept by new takers. You are adopting his administration.

-Let all Religions take the Mandate. Honestly this is just dumb. Would Kublai Khan have been unable to start a dynasty if he was Muslim or Christian? Absurd. Timur wanted to attack China. Maybe start a dynasty? Nope, he's Muslim, no can do!

-Don't autoforce the person taking the Mandate into Celestrial Empire. Give options and events for becoming more like it over time.

-Religion. I feel something special should be here for easier dealing with the multitudes of Tengri, Buddhists, Confucian and Muslims you will rule over. Yes, there is an even for going Confucian but I feel it should harmonize all religions you have in your realm before going in. Or give a massive boost to harmony so you can start harmonizing much faster.



I just feel sad seeing my Yuan die. Yes, I got the achivement and was done anyway. But it feels terrible to leave this dying friend behind. All because I had to take Mandate. In a real game I would never do it. Paradox, please make mandate worth taking and not a suicide pill!

 

[bbqftw]

They would (bluntly speaking) have to nerf the reduced coring cost bonuses of EoC in order to do this.

My presumption is that the EoC mechanics were designed to make it so unpalatable to blobbers they'd never want to take it despite the 20 RCC.

Anyways, you can kind of solve your situation by releasing a vassal and gifting it your entire external border, not the most historically immersive nor pretty solution but it would allow you to recover your mandate at least.

 

[makaramus]

all those bonuses are too high to make it someting easy to manage. bonus coring cost? cheaper devolping? free MP + free admin point from goverment? Too much free

So best solution is making it hard to expand and it makes sense!

China wasnt ottoman... they didnt expand like crazy They didnt need

 

[Dakka]

I can’t really disagree with your post because I do agree that EoC needs to be a bonus and something that you want to have.
But I also disagree in the ways you want to fix it.
I believe that EoC is fine the way it is limited to religion, and I like how becoming Confucion Auto-accepts your old religion. If it was Tengri, though, I also feel your synchronized religion should be Auto-harmonized. The rest? Nah, that seems unbalanced to me just instantly accepting every religion in your realm.
I also feel that it is fine being limited to Confucion and Tengri as well. I don’t see a Christian European wanting to be “Emperor Of China” rather than just have the land as part of the “X European Nation Here Empire”. I also don’t really see Sunnis needing it either.

Celestial Empire is part of EoC. It has to have a unique government associated with it and I believe it is necessary for Meritocracy to work.

For reforms, I also think it’s fine to restart them. They are not too difficult to get and it would make the mechanic as a whole pointless if you take it with all bonuses active. It’s like wanting all the benefit from being Emperor without also putting in the work.

Everyone should get the penalty for not having tributaries, BUT there needs to be a grace period when taking EoC from Ming. For balance reason, you should probably start with 50 and have a 5-15 year period where you don’t lose Mandate due to a lack of tributaries. This gives you a chance to diplomatically tributize Small Nations and force larger nations under your rule.
You could have the penalty for tributaries negated or minimized after passing all reforms in order to be able to expand without having to worry about tributaries once you have put in the effort to reform your government.

I don’t think it’s right game balance wise to penalize a tag simply for being that tag unless it is flavorful (IE. Castilian civil war, made up for with the Iberian Wedding). Having Ming only get a penalty for not having tributaries just because they’re Ming is lazy game design and is doing exactly what you are criticizing: balancing the mechanic around a single tag

 

[Cagliostro]

I think the Mandate should be a bonus, yes - however, it's unfortunate that the game as it is totally breaks Ming. Stealing monarch points from Asia (plus the eventual +1 admin point) means that Ming is usually the tech leader for basically the whole game, in addition to its other bonuses. The Mandate levels are wacky high so that Ming has usually finished off all of the reforms well before 1600 - however as a player trying to *take* the Mandate your levels are comically bad.

Honestly the whole tribute notion needs to be reworked somewhat - you get too much of the wrong kind of power for tribute, it's basically impossible to get people to pay tribute if you're not Ming, and the defense of tributaries screws up large parts of Asia. I haven't been able to have fun playing vanilla for a while now because Ming are like robot martians from the future nowadays, screwing up the tech map and fighting land wars in Persia. The tribute mechanic is also not as moddable as I would like - you can't just invent your own kinds of tribute and disable ones you think are OP, for example.

The screwed-up tech map doesn't even boost the RotW - it just is 'giant bonus for Ming'.

 

[Sukramo]

I can’t really disagree with your post because I do agree that EoC needs to be a bonus and something that you want to have.
But I also disagree in the ways you want to fix it.
I believe that EoC is fine the way it is limited to religion, and I like how becoming Confucion Auto-accepts your old religion. If it was Tengri, though, I also feel your synchronized religion should be Auto-harmonized. The rest? Nah, that seems unbalanced to me just instantly accepting every religion in your realm.
I also feel that it is fine being limited to Confucion and Tengri as well. I don’t see a Christian European wanting to be “Emperor Of China” rather than just have the land as part of the “X European Nation Here Empire”. I also don’t really see Sunnis needing it either.

Celestial Empire is part of EoC. It has to have a unique government associated with it and I believe it is necessary for Meritocracy to work.

For reforms, I also think it’s fine to restart them. They are not too difficult to get and it would make the mechanic as a whole pointless if you take it with all bonuses active. It’s like wanting all the benefit from being Emperor without also putting in the work.

Everyone should get the penalty for not having tributaries, BUT there needs to be a grace period when taking EoC from Ming. For balance reason, you should probably start with 50 and have a 5-15 year period where you don’t lose Mandate due to a lack of tributaries. This gives you a chance to diplomatically tributize Small Nations and force larger nations under your rule.
You could have the penalty for tributaries negated or minimized after passing all reforms in order to be able to expand without having to worry about tributaries once you have put in the effort to reform your government.

I don’t think it’s right game balance wise to penalize a tag simply for being that tag unless it is flavorful (IE. Castilian civil war, made up for with the Iberian Wedding). Having Ming only get a penalty for not having tributaries just because they’re Ming is lazy game design and is doing exactly what you are criticizing: balancing the mechanic around a single tag

1. Why do you think a European Christian would be unable to be Emperor of a large part of Asia? It happened with India (Empress of India) but you are saying that its completly impossible for the same to happen if say the British took over most of China instead? No, I don't buy that reasoning. The people dont care what religion their Emperor is. If he rules China, he rules it and should be able to have himself declared as such. And then you get to make decisions on being more Celestrial Empire, just how does your regime that rules China look?
Is it more tribal, more European or does it have Japanese influences? Or does it completly change your government into exactly what the Ming were? I want separation between taking the Mandate and Celestrial Empire.

As for religion, do you really think its fair for the people of China to be fine with invading Japan to be Emperor but the moment they go Catholic, its a complete no-go?

2. I wish to penalize Ming because he deserves it. The guy can even in a bad players hands dominate everything around him and have the steppes fully controlled aswell as ruling Moscow in 1500 WHILE he is the birthplace of Colonialism. He needs those special rules to not break the game (I miss 50% autonomy floor). The problem is that right now those harsh Ming-rules falls upon all EoC. The fair solution is to relive atleast some of those rules to all non-Ming nations that take the Mandate.

Ultimatly it now just feels so....underdeveloped to take the Mandate. No warning on what it does, just "Oh you are Celestrial now! Prepare for 200k rebels to rise up due to low Mandate. This should be the coolest moment of the game and its just....the very worst decision you could take. And it costs 50% war score.

More development on how I want my China to be ruled please Paradox!

 

[Dakka]

1. Why do you think a European Christian would be unable to be Emperor of a large part of Asia? It happened with India (Empress of India) but you are saying that its completly impossible for the same to happen if say the British took over most of China instead? No, I don't buy that reasoning.

But when Victoria was crowned Empress Of India, did she immediately model her government after India’s Shahs? No. Her title only reflected the land she owned, not how she ruled it. India was still considered part of the British Empire, not the other way around. There is a reason her primary title was “Queen of Britain”.

The people dont care what religion their Emperor is.

State Religion =/= Ruler Religion. And yes, they do. Look at all the turmoil in England, France, and the HRE when the ruler of the nation did not share the beliefs of their people. The time of Henry VIII and Mary I Tudor are both great examples.

And then you get to make decisions on being more Celestrial Empire, just how does your regime that rules China look?

When the Manchu took control of China, they actually adopted and utilized many among officials and way of rule. So yes, it is believable this way.

As for religion, do you really think its fair for the people of China to be fine with invading Japan to be Emperor but the moment they go Catholic, its a complete no-go?

Already stated, State Religion =/= Ruler Religion. Ireland is another example of this. It has a huge split because of the differences of the Protestants and Catholics to this day.

2. I wish to penalize Ming because he deserves it.

I’ve already addresses this in my original response. It’s not good game design to penalize a tag just for being that tag. Perhaps an event in which Ming has a choice or some way to prevent or remove the modifier. But having it just be there is stupid. Why should Ming be penalized just because it starts with the most Dev? Because you have a personal vendetta? How would it improve game design? What historical reasoning do you have to support this idea? Or do you just want Ming nerfed because they are Ming?

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

The only thing that is really needed is a small grace period to consolidate. 15 or so years without the negative military debuffs would probably be enough to give a fighting chance.

 

[Dakka]

The only thing that is really needed is a small grace period to consolidate. 15 or so years without the negative military debuffs would probably be enough to give a fighting chance.

Exactly this. With some time to consolidate it would be much more realistic wanting to take it

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Indeed taking the mandate is a game ruining move. Ironically the best China game I had in a long time was my Mandate-less Qing run. Since forming Qing (unlike Yuan) doesn't require having the Mandate I did just that. Since Ming was forever stuck at 0 Mandate due to me bordering them at all times, they were forever stuck with various rebels and paper troops. By the time I had devoured the last of them the Russians showed up. I thought to myself "Oh boy! I am so happy I didn't take the Mandate". Was a fairly enjoyable run due to this, spent the last of the run feuding with the Russians over eastern Siberia for nice borders and setting up client states in Japan and Indo-China. Mandate-less Qing highly recommendable!

As for fixing Ming/Mandate mechanics..... I think a total rework is in order. Like how the Random New World feature was reworked from being mostly bad to being mostly good.
Maybe make the Ming mechanics unique to the celestial empire government which only Ming uses aka loosing Mandate to non tributaries bordering the EoC. That along with making it so that when you take the Mandate you do not become a celestial empire but rather a despotic monarchy would make taking the Mandate infinitely more attractive. Having more tributaries would still boost your mandate growth ofc.

 

[Dutch Patriot]

Only the Asian continent should count for the non-tributary malus. That would balance it.

 

[tom025]

I can’t really disagree with your post because I do agree that EoC needs to be a bonus and something that you want to have.
But I also disagree in the ways you want to fix it.
I believe that EoC is fine the way it is limited to religion, and I like how becoming Confucion Auto-accepts your old religion. If it was Tengri, though, I also feel your synchronized religion should be Auto-harmonized. The rest? Nah, that seems unbalanced to me just instantly accepting every religion in your realm.
I also feel that it is fine being limited to Confucion and Tengri as well. I don’t see a Christian European wanting to be “Emperor Of China” rather than just have the land as part of the “X European Nation Here Empire”. I also don’t really see Sunnis needing it either.

Celestial Empire is part of EoC. It has to have a unique government associated with it and I believe it is necessary for Meritocracy to work.

For reforms, I also think it’s fine to restart them. They are not too difficult to get and it would make the mechanic as a whole pointless if you take it with all bonuses active. It’s like wanting all the benefit from being Emperor without also putting in the work.

Everyone should get the penalty for not having tributaries, BUT there needs to be a grace period when taking EoC from Ming. For balance reason, you should probably start with 50 and have a 5-15 year period where you don’t lose Mandate due to a lack of tributaries. This gives you a chance to diplomatically tributize Small Nations and force larger nations under your rule.
You could have the penalty for tributaries negated or minimized after passing all reforms in order to be able to expand without having to worry about tributaries once you have put in the effort to reform your government.

I don’t think it’s right game balance wise to penalize a tag simply for being that tag unless it is flavorful (IE. Castilian civil war, made up for with the Iberian Wedding). Having Ming only get a penalty for not having tributaries just because they’re Ming is lazy game design and is doing exactly what you are criticizing: balancing the mechanic around a single tag

Lots of good ideas here, and easy to fix ! I hope the dev will see it, it will make the EOC worth taking

 

[Bibor]

My Empire is rapidly falling apart because I took the Mandate. Replacing Horde unity for Mandate that drops like a rock for bordering people and Meritocracy that I cant keep up due to advisors being too expensive.

Yes, it makes perfect sense from a historical perspective. This same problem was presented to Yuan historically. It decided to focus on stabilizing China.

I've played Ming recently, so I can answer your question directly.

1. There's nothing wrong with Mandate of Heaven. Learn how Mandate works. Fire up a game as Ming first, before venturing into the unknown.

2. If you control all of China and you don't have enough income to pay for high level advisors (especially the half-price ones), you're doing something terribly wrong.

3. You're now The Middle Kingdom, act like it. You blobbed all the way to Persia, into lands that are now fairly useless to you. Release those provinces and make them your tributaries or release them as vasslas. Release Mongolia or Oirat and feed them your provinces that border Russia. Immediately teach Bengal and Lan Xang their proper place (force Bengal to release Assam and Tibet or Nepal and to return cores to Ava).

 

[Sukramo]

But when Victoria was crowned Empress Of India, did she immediately model her government after India’s Shahs? No. Her title only reflected the land she owned, not how she ruled it. India was still considered part of the British Empire, not the other way around. There is a reason her primary title was “Queen of Britain”.

State Religion =/= Ruler Religion. And yes, they do. Look at all the turmoil in England, France, and the HRE when the ruler of the nation did not share the beliefs of their people. The time of Henry VIII and Mary I Tudor are both great examples.

When the Manchu took control of China, they actually adopted and utilized many among officials and way of rule. So yes, it is believable this way.

Already stated, State Religion =/= Ruler Religion. Ireland is another example of this. It has a huge split because of the differences of the Protestants and Catholics to this day.

I’ve already addresses this in my original response. It’s not good game design to penalize a tag just for being that tag. Perhaps an event in which Ming has a choice or some way to prevent or remove the modifier. But having it just be there is stupid. Why should Ming be penalized just because it starts with the most Dev? Because you have a personal vendetta? How would it improve game design? What historical reasoning do you have to support this idea? Or do you just want Ming nerfed because they are Ming?

My point is that it should be possible for "foreigners" no matter how strange (Christian Europeans) to declare themselves as the lawful rulers of a large part of India/China. By adopting a more traditional local governence in China while staying the same at home. There is no logical reason to prevent Christians or Muslims from delacring themselves a new Chinese dynasty. Nor is it logical to force how non-Chinese land is governed simply because you take the mandate. Did the way Kublai treated his Mongol subjects chance due to him taking the mandate? Not really, but in game it would be a massive difference and lead to rebels. The system is too simplistic as it is. We need more depth and thought put into the system.

It's all a mess right now. So what if christian Great Britain or massive Sunni Timurids could be EoC? I dont see a problem with it and it is historically plausible.

As for religion, bringing into European religious strife into a discussion on how religion impacts how the EoC is seen by the Chinese is a really bad argument. It's completly different views and parts of the world. Kublai could have been Sunni and it wouldnt have changed how he was seen in China, nor impacted his abiltiy to take the Mandate. And I doubt it would have spawned more rebellions due to him being Sunni instead of Tengri. He was still a wierd foreign invader to most.

Ming remains the single biggest problem in the game due to this game being about blobbing with large Empires and not at all about the problem that come with rulling such an Empire. Hence why Ming the strongest nation in the game. I'm not the one arguing for penalties to the Ming, Paradox is! The way Mandate works is to penalize Ming and it does a decent job, together with 0 Mandate and Unguarded border, he's beatable. That is awesome. But its bad design to hurt players just as harshly when they take EoC from Ming. There is no need for it and having it in makes anyone sane avoid taking EoC like the plague.

That is what this thread is about. How to turn taking EoC into something you actually want/can do in a reasonable situation.

Yes, it makes perfect sense from a historical perspective. This same problem was presented to Yuan historically. It decided to focus on stabilizing China.

I've played Ming recently, so I can answer your question directly.

1. There's nothing wrong with Mandate of Heaven. Learn how Mandate works. Fire up a game as Ming first, before venturing into the unknown.

2. If you control all of China and you don't have enough income to pay for high level advisors (especially the half-price ones), you're doing something terribly wrong.

3. You're now The Middle Kingdom, act like it. You blobbed all the way to Persia, into lands that are now fairly useless to you. Release those provinces and make them your tributaries or release them as vasslas. Release Mongolia or Oirat and feed them your provinces that border Russia. Immediately teach Bengal and Lan Xang their proper place (force Bengal to release Assam and Tibet or Nepal and to return cores to Ava).

Ugh, I suspected someone would come in here and go "This is your fault, you so bad, learn game, git gud!"

I know exactly how the Mandate works. That's not the problem. I knew fully well that clicking that button would likely ruin my Empire. And I know damn well how Ming work, I've done a WC with them post-Mandate. Its not unknown territory to me. I had to do it for an achivement and then I was done.

The problem here is that right taking Mandate being an awful way to die with little bonus. We all know that. It works with Ming because he can pacify anything around him right from the start.

But in my game I can't beat Mega Russia who is allied to Mega Ottomans with 3 times my troops. Oh and they have eaten half of Commonwealth and Austria so there is no one to ally vs them.

No one sane would take Mandate in my situation if they expected to keep playing. Can we discuss ways for it to be worth it without the game hard punishing Mongolia for not eating Russia early?

 

[Bibor]

But in my game I can't beat Mega Russia who is allied to Mega Ottomans with 3 times my troops. Oh and they have eaten half of Commonwealth and Austria so there is no one to ally vs them.

As an asian power, you know you will eventually be forced to deal with either Russia, Ottomans or both. Not disbanding that alliance is truly your own fault, as Ottomans love nothing more than to hate Russia if you give them the opportunity to do so (they outgrow other potential rivals). Russia even gets permanent claims on by-then Ottoman land. Pefect opportunities wasted.

Yet for some reason you decided its wise to border them both (Ottos via Caspian Sea) and let their alliance flourish. Why would you even take that useless land?

Mandate of Heaven is a relic of old times, from when maps were little more than a vague idea of what's where. If you truly want to take it, treat is as bankruptcy: 10-15 year truces with everyone relevant to shield you from conesquences.

EDIT: It's kinda hypocritical to cry about the very mechanics that enabled you to defeat Ming in the first place, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Canute VII]

"Back in control" indeed!

 

[Krilnik]

Just give 100 mandate to a new mandate controller and a modifier like 'recently took the celestial throne' which gives you positive mandate monthly for some amount of years. Because if you beat the divine empire there can be no more proof of your divinity.
Also during those 5 years it would be impossible to push for reforms, and yeah, all reforms should be lost.

This should give player time to make enough tributaries.

Also every religion should be able to take the celestial throne, but as soon as it takes it, event should pop up demanding to convert to confucianism or start a disaster that makes chinese people mad. If you survive it, you get to make your christian/muslim/animist or whatsoever chinese empire.
But converting to confucianism should make your people mad.

 

[Bibor]

Just give 100 mandate to a new mandate controller

Nope. Mandate is like a religion. Either people belive it or not. Even the bonuses are strikingly similar. You should not start at 100.

EDIT: I do believe, however, that the -0.3 per 100 dev is too harsh, especially since Allies also count for tanking mandate. Allies should be treated as "token tributaries".

 

[Krilnik]

Nope. Mandate is like a religion. Either people belive it or not. Even the bonuses are strikingly similar. You should not start at 100.

Then just make a modifier that nullifies zero mandate for certain amount of years. Because current system is punishing the player for beating the strongest empire in the world and taking its throne.

 

[Bibor]

Then just make a modifier that nullifies zero mandate for certain amount of years. Because current system is punishing the player for beating the strongest empire in the world and taking its throne.

I agree the player should be rewarded for smart play. Mandate of Heaven is (or should be) important primarily to its Chinese subjects. As i mentioned, allies and vassals shouldn't count for tanking mandate, so (at least temporarily) allying big neighbors like his Bengal should be okay. Even AI ming does it sometimes (allying Bengal if it breaks free), yet it destroys its mandate.