Taking on Ming

[HydroAC]

It is 1669 and I'm playing as Austria. I've enacted Reform #7 and am quite pleased with the vassal swarm. it is kind of like a fire-and-forget heat-seeking missile. I have PUs on Spain, Poland, Lithuania, England and Brittany and I'm working on possible PUs on Portugal (a released vassal), Alodia and Ethiopia. The Ottomans are all but gone, and I'm expanding aggressively into India. I've fed Sweden, Tunis, Morocco, most of Novgorad, and part of Russia to my HRE minions.

So why am I still leery of taking on Ming?

Ming has 130K to my 260K. I'm struggling to get this up to my force limit of 525 due to chronically low manpower, and I've started using Mercs for siege infantry. My vassals have ~500K alone.

One tactic recommended in this forum was to blitz a small Tributary, overrunning them before Ming can respond and then peacing them out. I tried this and it worked.

I've also found out that Ming does not always honor the call when a tributary is attacked. I just attacked Russia (which I foolishly let Ming force into Tributary status), and Ming is letting my vassal swarm overrun them.

Perhaps just declare on Ming, put my troops in an out-of-the-way location (say, a war in Indonesia), and let my HRE minions take care of Ming in what would be a long, bloody war? And when I win, take some land and break Ming apart?

Or it is better to leave Ming alone and take on easier targets, then go after him when I sort out my manpower problem and get really big?

 

[Dominion]

If you can't kill em, just border them.
Then wait.
As soon as their mandate tanks their troops become paper.

Imagine someone being 2 mil techs behind you, only even worse.

 

[DarKnight249]

If you want to crush them, move on them before they get ideas that increase Mercenary Limit, with the new modifier from Low Mandate they will just lose to their own rebels, unable to respond.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

Most important point is, how is Mings mandate? If you don't border them yet, change this ASAP, then Mandate should tick down fast. With 0 mandate, Mings troops are paper.
Other points how long a war will last is, how many forts in which level do they have and how is your siege ability (enough cannons, offensive ideas siege ability, leader siege pips?). If you want, you can after first Ming defeat, immediately declare on another tributary and defeat Ming again or let them be occupied for max war exhaustion to let them die to rebels after finally peacing out (dunno exactly how this works atm).

 

[HydroAC]

I do have a border with Ming - I grabbed land from a Tributary that was allied to Bahmanis. He has been demanding I be a Tributary (ha!).

His Mandate is 92, with +0.41 a month. Ming has 22 Tributaries.

Ming's manpower is 8k (!!!). He is not at war, so his army must be sitting on low-support lands and being destroyed by attrition. Maybe this is why he didn't honor the call by his Tributary Russia. Perhaps this is an opportunity to take more land from Tributaries and increase my border with Ming?

He has mostly level 2 forts, some of which are not maintained (zero garrison). Ming's Ideas are Admin, Def, Influ, Eco, and Quantity - so he can merc up and have a big army.

I have no military ideas (ideas are diplo, religious, influence, admin, exploration - humanism is next). One general I got through an event has a terrific 4 siege pips, but other generals are pretty average with a few pips for shock and maybe one for siege.

 

[Dominion]

I have no military ideas (ideas are diplo, religious, influence, admin, exploration - humanism is next).

lol

 

[HydroAC]

As Austria, Diplo and Religious seemed necessary first ideas as HRE Emperor. After that, I was trying to integrate subjects (Influence) and keep the diplo game robust. That led to Admin (coring cost, primarily - preparing for Absolutism). I wanted in on the colonization game, so Exploration seemed to make sense.

With the advent of Reform #7 and the vassal swarm, military ideas didn't seem to make it too far up the list - until my manpower started tanking due to constant rebel fights and attrition during wars in the near east, India and Indonesia. Carting around troops in transports doesn't help, either. Humanism will help reduce rebels, so it will indirectly help keep manpower up.

 

[Darkath]

Take on ming, (take on ming)
Take ming on, (take on ming)
I'll be gone
In a day or twooooooooo

 

[bly08]

I think if you declare on Ming and go AFK for two hours you should be able to get to 60+ war score.

 

[Dominion]

As Austria, Diplo and Religious seemed necessary first ideas as HRE Emperor. After that, I was trying to integrate subjects (Influence) and keep the diplo game robust. That led to Admin (coring cost, primarily - preparing for Absolutism). I wanted in on the colonization game, so Exploration seemed to make sense.

With the advent of Reform #7 and the vassal swarm, military ideas didn't seem to make it too far up the list - until my manpower started tanking due to constant rebel fights and attrition during wars in the near east, India and Indonesia. Carting around troops in transports doesn't help, either. Humanism will help reduce rebels, so it will indirectly help keep manpower up.

If mil ideas aren't high up your list and Ming's mandate isn't tanked then butting heads with them isn't on your list either.

You were asking why you're having trouble with them. That's why you're having trouble with them.

If you still want to waltz them down you can just outgrow them. Probably the most simple idea in your pos. It's 1669, more than enough time. And Imperialism will let you take more than the dirt you'd get with conquest cb.

Eat something else, wait for dip23, overrun them with sheer numbers.

 

[DarkBlue]

I was facing an exact same situation as yours! What I did was to start a war with Ming (CB doesn't matter), and meanwhile DOW on other of his tributaries until the mandate becomes safely negative (remember that his mandate will recover with prosperity). In my case I fought a hard fight with Ming while eating his Indochina tributaries, and took as many forts as I could and bordered as many provinces to Ming as I could. Few years later and mandate hit 0, now I'm only waiting for the truce expiry to finish Ming.

 

[HydroAC]

OK. All very good points and thanks for the advice. I'll work on taking lands around Ming to crash his Mandate.

As I've eaten lands close to Ming his Mandate is dropping. My Russian Tributary war claimed Russian colonial land on the north side of Ming. Most of India is consumed now, and the Mandate has slipped to +0.25/month.

My next target is Ayutthaya and his 2 allies that are small Ming Tributaries. This will give me more border with Ming and more land close to him, further crashing his Mandate. By a happy coincidence my latest war with the Bahmanis is done and my HRE minions just arrived - just in time to attack Ayutthaya.

 

[cuendillar]

How does this bordering effect to tank the mandate work? I'm about to go head-to-head with them (or rather their ally Japan) and would really like to know. If it counts all my dev, which is primarily in Europe and Africa, it's surely simplest to blockade them and land on Hainan island in order to demand it.

It seems very worthwhile if my entire 3k dev counts as a penalty to their mandate, but much less so if only the 7 dev on that particular island does. In the latter case, I might as well save myself the monarch points and take a white peace.

By the way, me getting a land connection with my heartlands isn't feasible. A full-on land war could be winnable, but less costly if I could force down their mandate first.

 

[HydroAC]

I initially got a border with Ming and the Mandate didn't change much. As I increased my border on the north (taking land from Russia) and the south then it crashed.

I don't know the mechanics, though - only by anecdote.

 

[gia257]

https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Emperor_of_China#Mandate

oversea means no direct land connection to capital

 

[cuendillar]

https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Emperor_of_China#Mandate

oversea means no direct land connection to capital

I saw that, but wasn't sure if it meant that European colonies in China didn't count their homelands or whether natives/CNs bordering Chinese colonies were ignored. Both interpretations are reasonable, just differing what nation 'overseas' referred to.

I did seize a province of Chinese land, but in a 20% deal with Japan instead. Only the land taken was counted for the mandate penalty, so I guess that settles it.

 

[otaats]

Taking on Ming is very easy, especially if you have more manpower.