Taking Mecca(Yeah Right!)

unmerged(2245) · Oct 2, 2002

Beyond possible tech increases(saw that thread), prestige and piety(I'm guessing on these) will taking Mecca have any other impact?

I ask this because Mecca is such a holy place to Islam I would think you might be able to do some of the following:

1. Threaten to destroy Mecca and the kabba if you or your allies are attacked by any Islamic state. Owning Mecca quarantees peace. Kind of like the Great Wall in Civ III. Something would have to be done to make sure Mecca is hard to hold though.

2. Going ahead and destroying the town and kabba. Makes you and your allies permanent enemies of the Islam world. Cannot make conditional peace treaties with Islamic states unless that state is in a weak position after attacking. Armies that lose battles against Islamic states are totally destroyed, not allowed to retreat on any condition. I doubt Muslim soldiers would feel any sympathy toward a Christian that destroyed a holy item.

3. Taking the kabba back to the home kingdom for display purposes. Again number 2 would apply until the stone is returned to the Islamic world. After that, normal game rules apply.

One other thing, I guess Ethiopia, and Dongola is out of area for playing purposes. Would make an interesting challenge to play surrounded by Islamic states. Also they might help as an ally to attack Egypt or across the sea toward the Arabian pen.

unmerged(4643) · Oct 2, 2002

Or we can destroy the Kabba and build a Church glorifying the Pope on the site of the Kabba and in Mecca in general! Boy that would sure upset those remaining nations.

vale,

Sulla

Drakken · Oct 2, 2002

The Turks did exacly the same thing to the Saint-Sophia Church in Constantinople in 1453. So yes, it should be possible for us to do the same.

Drakken

unmerged(5367) · Oct 2, 2002

Not to forget the true cross that saladdin desecrated and destoyed.
Whatever you can think of to do to that stone, go ahead, the muhammedans deserve it

unmerged(255) · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Drakken
The Turks did exacly the same thing to the Saint-Sophia Church in Constantinople in 1453. So yes, it should be possible for us to do the same.

Well we [Turks] didn't really destroy Hagia Sophia did we now? Just converted it to a mosque...and then a museum [best use for religious buildings of any kind in this age and time really]

That aside, taking Mecca and Medina as Christian powers should be extremely difficult due to distance, lack of manpower (vis a vis the number of opposing forces that is) and supply problems through the Arabian peninsula.

unmerged(5664) · Oct 2, 2002

Not to mention that the Hagia Sophia has nowhere near the same significane as Mecca does...

Norgesvenn · Oct 2, 2002

Taking Mecca seems awfully ambitious, considering how difficult it was for the Crusaders to beat the Mameluks and Saladin. But I'd like the opportunity to raze the city, yes.

unmerged(8451) · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
Not to mention that the Hagia Sophia has nowhere near the same significane as Mecca does...

But Jerusalem does, and the muslims took that... So payback may be in order.

Norgesvenn · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Captain Krunch

But Jerusalem does, and the muslims took that... So payback may be in order.

Ahem... which the Crusaders took first.

This spiral of violence... hey, wait. This isn't a discussion about the Middle East. Ahem... right! Burn Mecca!!!

Demetrios · Oct 2, 2002

IIRC a band of Crusaders actually did raid Mecca...

Havard · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Demetrios
IIRC a band of Crusaders actually did raid Mecca...

Not quite. Reynald de Châtillon raided the Red Sea coast in 1182–83 and threatened Mecca, but AFAIK he never reached it...

unmerged(8451) · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Demetrios
IIRC a band of Crusaders actually did raid Mecca...

You'd have to be pretty old to recall that...

Unless this happened recently.

Seriously, this is interesting. What exactly did this raid accomplish? Could not have accomplished much, because it did not leave a big impression on history, and I never heard of it.

Demetrios · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Havard
Not quite. Reynald de Châtillon raided the Red Sea coast in 1182–83 and threatened Mecca, but AFAIK he never reached it...

OK, he must have raided Jiddah instead, which would be a bit more logical, since a raid on Mecca would definitely have made a large impact in the history books. I remembered reading something long ago about Crusaders capturing some of the wealth of Muslim pilgrims, and Jiddah would definitely be a place where such wealthy pilgrims would be...

Vandelay · Oct 2, 2002

Seriously, this is interesting. What exactly did this raid accomplish? Could not have accomplished much, because it did not leave a big impression on history, and I never heard of it.

It served in part (along with other treaty violations by Reynald) as a Casus Belli for the war that led to Saladin´s victory at Hattin and capture of Jerusalem.

Jiddah was also raided by the Portuguese in the 1510´s but they were fought off by the Ottomans.

Cheers,
Vandelay

Damocles · Oct 2, 2002

As someone mentioned, Reynald de Chatillon did threaten to desecrate Mecca, yet never really came close. His threat caused just about the entire Islamic world to vilify him so it was surprising when Saladin actually attempted to show a modicum of restraint and mercy towards him.

However, I don't believe Mecca will even be on the map..

Btw, the Turks taking Constantinople was probably the best thing that ever happened to that city. I've been to Istanbul on several occassions. Though it has fallen on hard times recently, it still has some of the most beautiful architecture in the world...And most of that that remains is of Turkish influence.

If the Turks hadn't taken Constantinople and turned it into Istanbul (Or if a less enlightened ruler had, later), there would probably be nothing left there at all. No, Constantinople remained in Greek hands about as achingly long as possible, it was good fortune for it to have then been conquered by a people intent on preserving it and making it even more glorious. Though I think it must have been magnificent, before the 4th crusade. Damn Franks

Havard · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Vandelay

It served in part (along with other treaty violations by Reynald) as a Casus Belli for the war that led to Saladin´s victory at Hattin and capture of Jerusalem.

But that was later raids of caravans, during a time of truce between Jerusalem and Saladin. Not related to the raids in the Red Sea...

Havard · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Damocles

However, I don't believe Mecca will even be on the map..

In the SGO review (quoted in the faq) the map is said to cover parts of Persia and the Arabian Peninsula. The question might be if "parts" here refer to both Persia and the Arabian Peninsula, or only the first. Apart from this we know nothing yet about the map coverage in Arabia...

jacob-Lundgren · Oct 2, 2002

i just remembered ethiopia. man that would bea fun exciting one to play

unmerged(5367) · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by jacob-Lundgren
i just remembered ethiopia. man that would bea fun exciting one to play

By taking nubia and later assisting crusaders by taking egypt

Ethiopia is a corner country so they shouldnt worry too much about anything exept their northern border.
Besides, they got the ark, cant be defeated, right?

jacob-Lundgren · Oct 2, 2002

so they are in the game?!?!?

if so i got 2 mains to play.
portugal and ethiopia.

Taking Mecca(Yeah Right!)

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