Taking down the big boys and making Vassals

[Konig15]

At the same time, subjigating the enitre Middle Kingdom and taking it all wouldn't have been allowed by other European nations, thus this is where customary law comes into play.

What the Hell is this "Customary Law" thing? Dude, when it comes to China you're a couple of centuries premature. If Portugal could have conquered China, they would have. I didn't see anyone shitting themselves when the Machus took out Ming China, or the Brits took out the Muhgal Empire, or the Turks the Mamluks or the Spainish when they wiped out THREE civilizations in 30 years in Latin America. Annexations, massive annexations, DID happen, just cause it didn't happen in Europe doesn't mean a thing.

It's a question of power, and see the thing is, I'm not playing to simulate history. I want to live hisotry, I'll go the Renescance Fair for what that's worth. I want to reshape the world into something more of my liking. Relgious conquests, world conquests, making sure England conquers the WHOLE of the New World, its all good. The other reason to play is to find strange, new, exotic cultures...then burn doen their cities steal anything not tied down, and bang their women. Livin la vida Conquistador.

I can see you don't want to play that way. That's fine. But just because you have no imagination doesn't mean I should have my gaming experience limited. If you want that balance of power thing, fine, ask the programers for it. I'd enjoy the challenge of a beat down in Europe before I reduce non Europe to a smoking ruin.

 

[Enravota]

I don't know about choosing the religion, but it would be nice to choose which provinces a vassal will (or will not) get when you release it. i.e. if in EUII I as France annex Savoie I'd like to keep the French part but release the Italian part I cannot, either whole Savoie or no Savoie. Also sometimes I would like to create bigger vassals than created. If we keep the Savoie example, if I as France alredy have Genoa and Lombardia, why not give them all to Savoie to create a stronger Italian puppet rather than three small ones. The idea to trade for provinces is also not that redicolous for European holdings. You might want to enlarge your buffer states after successfull war, or you might have gotten land you do not really need and cannot release.

About non full annexation I think the limt should be linked to percentage rather than number: i.e. smal countries (let say up to 4 provs) you can annex them, bigger countries you can get a specific precentage (if the precentage is 20% (though i would preffer it to be like 50%) if a country has 20 provs you can get only up to 4). This way the system would be more flexible, while less world conquer prone.

 

[Kuitenkin]

That would just promote "unhistorical" use of cores.

I've seen too many times the Genovese conquest of Estonia and the one-province Aragonese Ireland surrounded by English possessions. I agree with the Impaler: something should be done about that.

As for defeating huge empires... peace negatiations could offer the possibility to chop a buffer state off the empire that lost the war. If, for example, Austria emerges victorious from a long campaign against the Ottomans, they might want to found a puppet Serbia and control it as a satellite/vassal. This would have to approved by the losing side in the peace negotiations, of course. This way the player wouldn't have to conquer the provinces first, suffering badboy in the process, and then release them as a vassal. Maybe you could even specify which provinces you give to your vassal and which you keep yourself. (The local nobility would certainly prefer to control all lands attributed to the kingdom of Serbia, but they wouldn't really be the ones negotiating.) Incorporating the creation of new vassals to peace negotiations, basically. I guess this is something Konig was thinking about with Catherine and Constantinople in the first place. Oh and Konig's point 4. sounds good.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

That would just promote "unhistorical" use of cores.

How can there be such as thing as unhistorical use of cores? A core means that a province ought to be part of your country.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

What the Hell is this "Customary Law" thing? Dude, when it comes to China you're a couple of centuries premature. If Portugal could have conquered China, they would have.

Actually no they wouldn't. The ToT divided the world for them and spain for all barbaric lands. China was not regaurded as a Barbaric land by anyone until the English came.

It's a question of power, and see the thing is, I'm not playing to simulate history. I want to live hisotry, I'll go the Renescance Fair for what that's worth. I want to reshape the world into something more of my liking. Relgious conquests, world conquests, making sure England conquers the WHOLE of the New World, its all good. The other reason to play is to find strange, new, exotic cultures...then burn doen their cities steal anything not tied down, and bang their women. Livin la vida Conquistador.

I can see you don't want to play that way. That's fine. But just because you have no imagination doesn't mean I should have my gaming experience limited. If you want that balance of power thing, fine, ask the programers for it. I'd enjoy the challenge of a beat down in Europe before I reduce non Europe to a smoking ruin.

Then EU isn't for you.

How can there be such as thing as unhistorical use of cores? A core means that a province ought to be part of your country.

Let's take the OE. Many of its cores have no justification for being there, excpet historic future conquest. The people did not recognize OE as their rightful rulers, they OE had no historic ties there, nor did they have any ties through marriage or any other form.

Thus they serve no purpose other than an unhistortical use of them, ie to get the OE to actually take the territory it should take without it and not give any BB (which you technically can now lower through events, so that part is moot). It would promote this kind of unhistorical use of cores all around the world.

Oh, and the OE is just one example, aside from Russia, probably the biggest exploiter of this, but its not alone.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Let's take the OE. Many of its cores have no justification for being there, excpet historic future conquest. The people did not recognize OE as their rightful rulers, they OE had no historic ties there, nor did they have any ties through marriage or any other form.

They were the lands of the infidel, thus rightfully Ottoman.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

They were the lands of the infidel, thus rightfully Ottoman.

Not all of it. You can hardly say Egypt or western Arabia were the lands of the infidel.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Not all of it. You can hardly say Egypt or western Arabia were the lands of the infidel.

Ottomans were the Sword of Islam, thus the Two Holy Cities were rightfully Ottoman, to protect the shrines from the infidel.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Ottomans were the Sword of Islam, thus the Two Holy Cities were rightfully Ottoman, to protect the shrines from the infidel.

That doesn't include Egypt or western arabia. Even if you include Baghdad and Alexandria, there are many areas they conquered.

 

[th3freakie]

That doesn't include Egypt or western arabia. Even if you include Baghdad and Alexandria, there are many areas they conquered.

I'll try to simplify it -

Lands of the Infidel = Ottoman

Lands of the Righteous = Ottoman

Lands of the infidel that isn't quite as infidel as the other infidels, but still a bit infiel = Ottoman

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I'll try to simplify it -

Lands of the Infidel = Ottoman

Lands of the Righteous = Ottoman

Lands of the infidel that isn't quite as infidel as the other infidels, but still a bit infiel = Ottoman

Then I guess Mughuls should get cores under all of China because Babur intended to conquer it before he died. That's the logic you are using.

 

[th3freakie]

Then I guess Mughuls should get cores under all of China because Babur intended to conquer it before he died. That's the logic you are using.

My logic aplies only to Russia and the OE. And Portugal in what the Indias are concerned.

 

[Tunch Khan]

That doesn't include Egypt or western arabia. Even if you include Baghdad and Alexandria, there are many areas they conquered.

The two cities mentioned are of course Mecca and Medina (Western Arabia; Hedjaz).

 

[Tunch Khan]

I'll try to simplify it -

Lands of the Infidel = Ottoman

Lands of the Righteous = Ottoman

Lands of the infidel that isn't quite as infidel as the other infidels, but still a bit infiel = Ottoman

You have received our Imperial blessings. On behalf of His Imperial Highness, Padishah, Hünkar, Hakan ül-Berreyn vel-Bahreyn; Sovereign of the House of Osman, Sultan of Sultans, Khan of Khans, Commander (caliph) of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe Protector of the Holy Cities of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem
Emperor of The Three Cities of Constantinople, Adrianople and Bursa, and of the Cities of Damascus and Cairo, of all Azerbaijan, of the Magris, of Barka, of Kairouan, of Aleppo, of Arabic Iraq and of Ajim, of Basra, of Al-Hasa, of Dilen, of Ar Raqqah, of Mosul, of Parthia, of Diyarbakir, of Cilicia, of the Vilayets of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, Van, of Barbary, of Abyssinia, of Tunisia, of Tripoli, of Damascus, of Cyprus, of Rhodes, of Candia, of the Vilayet of the Morea, of the Marmara Sea, the Black Sea and also its coasts, of Anatolia, of Rumelia, Baghdad, Kurdistan, Greece, Turkistan, Tartary, Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Georgia, of the plain of Kypchak, of the whole country of the Tartars (Crimea), of Kefe and of all the neighboring countries, of Bosnia and its dependencies, of the City and Fort of Belgrade, of the Vilayet of Serbia, with all the castles, forts and cities, of all Albania, of all Eflak (Wallachia) and Bogdania (Moldova), as well as all the dependencies and borders, and many others countries and cities, I hereby appoint you the Bey of Erdel (Transylvania) and grant you the title of Vizier with three horse tails.


When Mehmed II seized Constantinople on May 29, 1453, he claimed the title Emperor of the Roman Empire and protector of Orthodox Christianity. He appointed the Patriarch of Constantinople Gennadius Scholarius, whom he protected and whose stature he elevated into leader of all the Eastern Orthodox Christians. As emperor of the Romans he laid claim to all Roman territories, which at the time before the Fall of Constantinople.

From 1517 onwards, the Ottoman Sultan was also Caliph, which theoretically also gave him overlordship over other Muslim rulers around the world. For example, among the Mughal Emperors of India, only Aurangzeb had the Khutba read in his own name. All other Mughal Emperors had the Friday prayers start with the name of the Ottoman Sultan as their protector lord.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

When Mehmed II seized Constantinople on May 29, 1453, he claimed the title Emperor of the Roman Empire and protector of Orthodox Christianity. He appointed the Patriarch of Constantinople Gennadius Scholarius, whom he protected and whose stature he elevated into leader of all the Eastern Orthodox Christians. As emperor of the Romans he laid claim to all Roman territories, which at the time before the Fall of Constantinople.

But that does not mean they should get the right to the core on constantinople before it fell. In EU3, that might not matter, but it might also. Just because they recognize themselves as the legitimate successors of Byzantium does not mean everyone else does. Russia, FE, did not recognize it claiming they were the legitimate successors to Bycanitum.

So, just because you make that claim, doesn't mean it should be given. Case in point: Babur claimed the whole world was his (well known world) and his legacy (was seen as) coming from Ghenghis Khan (he went so far even to name his nation after the mongols), so i guess Mughul Empire should get cores because that's no different than what OE did.

From 1517 onwards, the Ottoman Sultan was also Caliph, which theoretically also gave him overlordship over other Muslim rulers around the world. For example, among the Mughal Emperors of India, only Aurangzeb had the Khutba read in his own name. All other Mughal Emperors had the Friday prayers start with the name of the Ottoman Sultan as their protector lord.

For sunnis, but i doubt you'd have many Shiites believing that. Also I don't think it would have gone over well had the OE decided to press its authority over Mughuls. It's also debatable whether or not had the OE not declared themselves a Caliphate when they did, if the Mughuls wouldn't ha shortly thereafter, especially after Akbar's rule. They Mughul Empire certainly could have as it had the clout to do so, but it didn't for any number of reasons, not the least of which was that OE already had done so.

 

[mesut]

Well, let me ask a question. What is the purpose of core provinces?

 

[Yakman]

But that does not mean they should get the right to the core on constantinople before it fell. In EU3, that might not matter, but it might also. Just because they recognize themselves as the legitimate successors of Byzantium does not mean everyone else does. Russia, FE, did not recognize it claiming they were the legitimate successors to Bycanitum.

But wasn't Mehmet married to the sister of the previous emperor? Theoretically that grants him a sort of claim.

(feel free to correct me if I'm completely off on this one...)

 

[th3freakie]

You have received our Imperial blessings. On behalf of His Imperial Highness, Padishah, Hünkar, Hakan ül-Berreyn vel-Bahreyn; Sovereign of the House of Osman, Sultan of Sultans, Khan of Khans, Commander (caliph) of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe Protector of the Holy Cities of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem
Emperor of The Three Cities of Constantinople, Adrianople and Bursa, and of the Cities of Damascus and Cairo, of all Azerbaijan, of the Magris, of Barka, of Kairouan, of Aleppo, of Arabic Iraq and of Ajim, of Basra, of Al-Hasa, of Dilen, of Ar Raqqah, of Mosul, of Parthia, of Diyarbakir, of Cilicia, of the Vilayets of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, Van, of Barbary, of Abyssinia, of Tunisia, of Tripoli, of Damascus, of Cyprus, of Rhodes, of Candia, of the Vilayet of the Morea, of the Marmara Sea, the Black Sea and also its coasts, of Anatolia, of Rumelia, Baghdad, Kurdistan, Greece, Turkistan, Tartary, Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Georgia, of the plain of Kypchak, of the whole country of the Tartars (Crimea), of Kefe and of all the neighboring countries, of Bosnia and its dependencies, of the City and Fort of Belgrade, of the Vilayet of Serbia, with all the castles, forts and cities, of all Albania, of all Eflak (Wallachia) and Bogdania (Moldova), as well as all the dependencies and borders, and many others countries and cities, I hereby appoint you the Bey of Erdel (Transylvania) and grant you the title of Vizier with three horse tails.

Dam, I need to look presentable then

*goes shave*

Ok is this ok for my new job?

(sigified by the way)

 

[Tunch Khan]

Dam, I need to look presentable then

*goes shave*

Ok is this ok for my new job?

(sigified by the way)

This is more appropriate for a Vizier position if you are conservative,

or this one for a contemporary uniform:

 

[th3freakie]

Hum... I guess I have a better chance at looking like the second one - I have the fez and a nice marrocan shirt also. All I need is medals now then. And the sword. Then I'll go play some Transylvania on EU2