Taking cores from allies

[PitaMarisol]

Hello all,

For my first post on this forum I have a pretty straightforward question - if I take from an enemy a province that my ally has a core on, will the ally always break the alliance or is there a way to maintain this alliance?

 

[tnlyons]

High relationship and diplo rep. But if the pop up is on the screen you're in a losing race if you haven't been preparing for it.

You need to weigh your options either take the province(s) and lose an ally or keep the ally and leave the province for later.

Figure out which will make you stronger and your enemies weaker so future wars will be easier.

 

[PitaMarisol]

It's a bit of a tricky case - I'll illustrate the game I am in. It's only 15 years or so in.

I am Brabant, and gained independence with the help of France and Austria and I gained Holland in the independence war.
Austria has managed to already lose the emperorship and won't be of much help until I have built up enough favours. Though they are generally unimpressive enough when they aren't emperor.

The first war with England has netted me Calais & the Pale.
I want to take as much land in the Channel node as possible to develop trade, and the province I am eyeing is Caux for the trade center.
If I don't initiate the next war with England ASAP after the truce timer runs out, France might take the initiative and start the war with England. If they take Caux, it might bea long time before I develop the power base to take it from them again. Though I figure I can prevent them taking it by occupying the province first.

If I initiate the ware and take Caux and lose the alliance with France, they will probably stomp me after the truce timer runs out to take their core.

So I think my best choice would be to forget about Caux for the foreseeable future, and develop my power base in the Low Countries & Ireland and invade England from the north - once I have managed to destroy England and work my way to London, whether I own Caux or not won't matter as much anymore.

Though I wonder if I did not shoot myself in the foot by taking the Pale and giving England easy access to my country.

 

[tnlyons]

You have two options in my mind:

1. Join HRE. If you do you'll almost always have the HRE as a defensive ally, they'll be powerful if you take the core from France and if you play smart and well and get an Iberian ally or two France won't be an issue that early in the game. If you try and keep France as an ally increase their trust exclusively, have a diplomat increase relationships with them and hopefully the alliance will hold.

2. Leave the province and take on England's mainland provinces. France will grow stronger without direct intervention by you but you'll have a strong ally for the rest of the game if you play your cards right.

IMO I'd gamble and take land from France and join HRE. If you can weaken them enough early on and keep them from getting cores they won't be a threat on your border late in the game.

 

[Badesumofu]

If you want to keep France as an ally then don't take Caux. You won't have enough trust at this point to keep the alliance while holding one of their cores.

That doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't do it, just expect France to turn hostile and be prepared for that if you do.

 

[Bouchart]

Having someone else's core gives a -20 relationship penalty. There could be a further penalty with the "wants your provinces" modifier but that is variable and depends on the ruler's personality and traits. You can always sell the province to them if you are desperate to keep them as an ally.

You are better off trying to get into the English mainland. Easier said than done of course but you are already on bad terms with England and the AE you get is insignificant to everyone except them. London is very valuable. Mark it as a province of interest and fabricate on it. Sometimes England falls apart due to a combination of the awful 0/0/0 leader, bad wars with France, Lollards, and the War of the Roses.

 

[Rocketskates]

keep in mind france will want the southern shore of england (or anything they can core), so if you take Kent for example, he will turn hostile
check their interests in the favours tab

 

[afb]

I'm not sure how taking Caux will affect your relationship with France, but one thing you could do is to declare war on England, call in France with favors and then leave Caux alone. Then you can keep using the French as your attack dog without actually letting them have Caux. Keep doing this until you are strong enough to risk the relationship with France, and only take it then. It won't get you the boost to trade right away, but you can get it earlier than if you let France have it in the first place.

 

[PitaMarisol]

It turns out that Castille decided to settle this matter of Caux for me they kicked Englands ass and decided to return most of their French holdings to France.

Later on I betrayed France by dishonouring their call to arms when they got beef with Iberian wedded Castille.
I expected Castille and allies would be able to kick France's ass and take their lands, but of course the blue behemoth got the best of them without even breaking a sweat.
So this was a pretty bad move and made matters quite a bit more complicated for me, as most of my routes of expansion then allied themselves with France (Kildare, Scotland, Münster).

To me it seems that dishonouring a Call to Arms is rarely a smart move, even if it means getting dragged in a tough war (which this one wouldn't even have been.)

I just got great power status, next up will be a war with Provence to get Ayrshire from Scotland without France being able to intervene, to establish a land route to England.
A naval invasion of England might be feasible in a few years, but will be tricky.
Consolidating the Low Countries & the British Islands should be pretty straightforward enough though, my only fear is that I will get dragged into a war between Castille - France.

 

[Rocketskates]

a smart move is to tick off the join offensive wars and tick it in for the year turning or watch your ally drilling its troops, no drilling and full maintaince means war, so back to no offensive wars, its done now

you allied everyone in the neighbourhood who hates France, start pummeling it and better do it quick before they become best buddies with the green monster sneaking into the picture on the right

 

[PitaMarisol]

That sounds like a good idea to tick off the join offensive wars box, I have never used that before. Hopefully that will keep Castille from getting to optimistic, and hopefully Frances diplomatic personality will keep them from warring on Castille. Right now I still need Castille as an attack dog.

Right now France & Ottomans are rivals, so for now I don't think France will gain any strong allies. I don't trust the AI enough to dare a war on France yet - together we might field enough units to beat France, but France will probably just take us out one by one. Conquering Britain seems the way to go for now and if that does not give me the strength to take on France, I'll probably expand in Scandinavia. Though indeed, the earlier France is taken on, the better.

(I've only played through the whole campaign once, as Brabant as well. It was a great game, I ended up owning the Americas & Africa & most of Europe, but my biggest regret was that I never dared turning on France. So that is certainly something I want to do better this time around. To bad I screwed up that safe file)