Tactics for the re-feudalization of an empire level Orthodox theocracy

[Asiak]

In my current game starting from the Doge of Amalfi 769, the year is now 910 and since 841 my liege the Ecumenical Patriarch has occupied the theocracy that is the Byzantine Empire.

This is not the first empire sized theocracy I've found myself under but it is the first Orthodox one. Once before I was stuck under a Catholic HRE theocracy. In that theocracy the liege interacted very interestingly with the Pope in that. When the bishop emperor died a new lowborn courtier would be generated as the Bishop Emperor of the HRE. But wielding such overwhelming secular power made him a shoe in for the college of cardinals. And almost instantly he would be a cardinal and be the prefaratus within months of election. And then when the Pope would die the Emperor would abdicate the throne because he was elected Pope (taking a strong HRE claim with him) and a new lowborn would take his place and repeat. And under this scenario I thought, perhaps farfetchedly, if I could de-land the Pope perhaps it would make him into a simple lowborn feudal character again and then maybe I could press his claim and re-feudalize the Empire.

But I digress, and my current game / predicament comes with no such option, college of cardinals, or Pope. The succession is Open Elective. Selecting based on unknown criteria a person from his court, or generating someone.

Spoiler: Succession

Now the obvious thought is faction a relative against him. But I'll be honest I've been distracted and decided to deal with this issue way to late. Because now the claimants page is small enough to fit on one page, and filled with nothing but 50 year olds with weak claims. God I hate hindsight.

Spoiler: Claimants

Besides the odd fact that I / my fellow vassals can't seem to create any factions other then independence and increase council power. I forgot to screenshot this but I suspect it has something to do with the fact that we are a theocracy. They also seem to actually press these factions a lot less.

But I'm at a loss. I mean I can buff the opinion up to make up for the fact that I'm Catholic and I currently have a favor with him so I will get on the council.

I have no other possible thought as to how I could re-feudalize him. Regardless I'm not looking to go independent right now.

Here are our council laws, and me just for reference.

Spoiler: Me

Spoiler: Council Laws

 

[Boodas]

If your not using ironman you can console the Patriarch title to another Bishop under the Empire and then use the set_government feudal_government followed by the character id of the current emperor.

If you don't want to cheat then at this point you would have to conqueror the Empire entirely. Then grant a duke all the land and give him a kingdom title to make him independent. Send some money and pray he survives long enough to create the Empire. This is for if you don't want to become an Emperor yourself.

If you don't mind being empire rank, you can do the previous steps and just grant the empire away to someone feudal. You will need 2 Empires in order to grant one away.

 

[Asiak]

Thank you but it is Ironman.

 

[StarSword]

Get a claim on the empire and start a claimant faction to install yourself, or some other claimant if you don't want to become the Grand Prince of Byzantium (it'll convert the place to a merchant republic if you take it over). Alternatively start a faction for elective succession. Either way, the idea is to separate the Empire from the patriarchate, the first one just means you don't have to wait for the Basileus to die.

 

[Asiak]

Get a claim on the empire and start a claimant faction to install yourself, or some other claimant if you don't want to become the Grand Prince of Byzantium (it'll convert the place to a merchant republic if you take it over). Alternatively start a faction for elective succession. Either way, the idea is to separate the Empire from the patriarchate, the first one just means you don't have to wait for the Basileus to die.

I'd prefer not to be the Grand Prince of Byzantium.

And as I said there is no option for either me or my vassals to start the elective faction, only independence and increase council power seem to show up. Now I am assuming that we can't create other factions because we are a theocracy but I'm not sure. Even if we could all of the claimants are 48 and above with weak claims that their children (which are sparse) won't inherit.

Maybe we can't faction for a claimant simply because he has a strong claim and there are only weak claims. But then why can I not faction for elective, these are the things I don' know.

 

[StarSword]

I'd prefer not to be the Grand Prince of Byzantium.

And as I said there is no option for either me or my vassals to start the elective faction, only independence and increase council power seem to show up. Now I am assuming that we can't create other factions because we are a theocracy but I'm not sure. Even if we could all of the claimants are 48 and above with weak claims that their children (which are sparse) won't inherit.

Maybe we can't faction for a claimant simply because he has a strong claim and there are only weak claims. But then why can I not faction for elective, these are the things I don' know.

Not 100% sure, but I think you're misunderstanding the game mechanics here. I'm reasonably sure that even claimants with weak claims are usable in factions, and the actual holder of a title doesn't have any active claim to it until he loses it (then he gets one, the strength of which I think corresponds to the manner in which he lost it). If you succeed in replacing the Basileus, the current one should end up with just the patriarchate and a claim on the Empire, while the Empire will revert to a non-theocracy succession (gavelkind seems to be the default but I don't know which for certain) and his replacement's children will inherit normally.

You're probably right that the theocracy is what's blocking elective succession, though.

 

[Arcvalons]

Weak claims can only be pressed against females, characters with regents, and characters whose titles are already being contested.

 

[Asiak]

Not 100% sure, but I think you're misunderstanding the game mechanics here. I'm reasonably sure that even claimants with weak claims are usable in factions, and the actual holder of a title doesn't have any active claim to it until he loses it (then he gets one, the strength of which I think corresponds to the manner in which he lost it). If you succeed in replacing the Basileus, the current one should end up with just the patriarchate and a claim on the Empire, while the Empire will revert to a non-theocracy succession (gavelkind seems to be the default but I don't know which for certain) and his replacement's children will inherit normally.

You're probably right that the theocracy is what's blocking elective succession, though.

Your right they do not have active claims until they loose it I do understand this. What I meant was he is a strong claimaint to the throne in the sense that he is male, not in a regency, there is no faction war for the throne, he isn't second in line to the throne, all of the things that would make a weak claim pressable in war.

Not that it matters because we are talking about factioning and your right that doesn't matter when factioning. I was just pointing to the weakness of the claims to clarify that marrying them or inheriting them isn't going to be an option. To old for babies, to weak for claim inheriting, won't even come to court.

Even the one female with a weak claim we should be able to faction for and we can't.

Edit. depending on laws for the female maybe?

 

[Anonymous01]

Thing is, even if you manage to create a strong claim for a character, you'll still need to declare independence so you can then press the character's claim.

You could try getting him to have kids, but given that patricians can only be male (so you can't get pregnant by him) plus the auto-generation of patriarch successors (so you can't arrange a marriage for the heir), that will be difficult and risky. And even if you succeed, you're back to square one: declaring independence so you can press the patriarch's kid's claim.

So I think your best bet may be to ditch your no-independence rule temporarily, get one of those weak claimants to your court, press their claim, then swear fealty.

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Anonymous01]

EDIT: I see he does have someone listed as his heir. Marry a woman to that heir so he'll have kids. Once the heir succeeds, kill him, get one of his kids to your court, then press their claim.

 

[Thrake]

You probably can't push factions for succession because it's a theocracy and those are locked to the pop a lowborn out of the blue system. You really wouldn't want an elective theocracy that you could inherit with a game over, right?

So I think your best bet may be to ditch your no-independence rule temporarily, get one of those weak claimants to your court, press their claim, then swear fealty.

But the only possibility to press a weak claim is against a regency, and that would only happen if the guy is incapable. Furthermore, it should be agantic so you can't press female claims. The only way out I can think of is if bastards still inherit claims from theocracy; then you could play a female and seduce him and hope to get a boy but that's not an option for a MR.

 

[Anonymous01]

But the only possibility to press a weak claim is against a regency, and that would only happen if the guy is incapable. Furthermore, it should be agantic so you can't press female claims. The only way out I can think of is if bastards still inherit claims from theocracy; then you could play a female and seduce him and hope to get a boy but that's not an option for a MR.

Yea, he would need to arrange a regency somehow. Or another claim war. But I don't think he should go the weak claim route: see my second post.

About womens claims on agnatic titles, are you certain? I'm sure I've pressed my characters' wives' strong claims on agnatic titles with no trouble. Did 2.5 change something?

 

[StarSword]

Hang on, I just realized what part of the problem is. IIRC if the Council has war declaration powers, then Council members cannot faction. Well, the Imperial Council has it (see the last picture in the OP).

But the strength of the claims shouldn't be a barrier to you nominating that Strategos Marinos fellow by faction.

 

[Asiak]

You probably can't push factions for succession because it's a theocracy and those are locked to the pop a lowborn out of the blue system. You really wouldn't want an elective theocracy that you could inherit with a game over, right?

Its hilarious. The safety measure to prevent the thing is the same thing that prevents the player from easily fixing it.

EDIT: I see he does have someone listed as his heir. Marry a woman to that heir so he'll have kids. Once the heir succeeds, kill him, get one of his kids to your court, then press their claim.

Dear god man that could be it. If I recall those men are simple courtiers. I think they're feudal, I think though something in me says maybe they're automatically their liege's government type. That could work.

The obvious troop disparity and pressing of that claim not with standing,

Hang on, I just realized what part of the problem is. IIRC if the Council has war declaration powers, then Council members cannot faction. Well, the Imperial Council has it (see the last picture in the OP).

That wouldn't or shouldn't remove factions from everyone else's options. And even without the council he has a steady 100%+ power increase council power faction that doesn't do anything.

 

[Anonymous01]

I think they're feudal, I think though something in me says maybe they're automatically their liege's government type.

Good point. Grant the claimant a barony just to be safe (and hope the government-type bug doesn't pop up).

 

[Arcvalons]

Get the Patriarch-Emperor incapable, so he gets a regent, and you can press a weak claim.

 

[Asiak]

His courtiers are indeed also theocracy government type.

He accepted the marriage anyway.

 

[StarSword]

Unlanded courtiers don't really have a government type: they're whatever their lord is and can be turned into anything if they're given a title.

 

[Walkaboutout]

Just a note here that may not be helpful, but who knows.....a regency doesn't need to come from the current Emperor being incapacitated. A regency can also occur if he goes into hiding from, say, a murder plot (though I'm not clear on all the necessary requirements to get him to the point he would go into hiding).

 

[Asiak]

Unlanded courtiers don't really have a government type: they're whatever their lord is and can be turned into anything if they're given a title.

As I learned at the beginning of this campaign when I invited two Isaurus Princes to my court and they became burghers.

Just a note here that may not be helpful, but who knows.....a regency doesn't need to come from the current Emperor being incapacitated. A regency can also occur if he goes into hiding from, say, a murder plot (though I'm not clear on all the necessary requirements to get him to the point he would go into hiding).

Too true. A tactic sometimes employed is simply plotting to murder until he goes into hiding.