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Ming

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Yes, the Sherman drove rings around broken down Tigers

One thing I would be very interested to know, is how did the Sherman's reliability compare to medium German armored vehicles such as Panzer 4s and Stugs, platforms that are usually denoted as 'reliable' in descriptions without much detail. A mean time to breakdown statistic would be very interesting.
 
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If you formulate the question in a different way: Faceing eachother in a 1 vs 1, which tank would you prefer to be in?

For me it would be t34 hands down.
 

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Why a T-34 would have faced a Sherman in the first place ?

The Korean War, perhaps? IIRC, the North Korean T-34/85 tanks really crushed the first US opposition which they encountered. There were number of reasons for that like after WWII US had reduced defense spending and first US troops in Korea were equipped with early WWII anti-tank weapons. At the same time, Soviets had helped North Korea to build a powerful military machine.
 

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The said opposition was equipped at first with M-24 and other light tanks, no ?

Later in the war, the Koreans did faced Shermans with T-34s. But at this point, it's hard to see which tank was better, with the (as in WW2) large US air and naval support.
 

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Why a T-34 would have faced a Sherman in the first place ?

A German captured T-34 vs a Russian lend lease Sherman :)

Btw the Sherman achieved a 2.20 K/D ratio against T-34s in Korea.
 

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If you formulate the question in a different way: Faceing eachother in a 1 vs 1, which tank would you prefer to be in?

For me it would be t34 hands down.

It depends on distance and if in movement...
If we compare '42 models they had similar armour and guns. Sherman's accuracy was better due to optics and stabliser... Also, Sherman was more comfortable.
However, that gasoline fuel was a disadvantage for personnel survival...
 

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Actuallly, this post is carefully worded to avoid the usual ''who had the best tank ever'' discussion-interesting but unconclusive.

Hence the formulation ''why the T-34 had a better reputation ?''

I guess the most obvious answer would simply be that a lot more armor met in the Eastern front than anywhere else, and the T-34 was the backbone of Soviet armor. That and having 'firsts' like the suspension and sloped armor, and coming as a bit of a shock to the Germans at first who actually discussed simply reverse-engineering it.
 

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Well you probably could, since the Soviets used significant numbers of Shermans themselves :p Just compare T-34 loss rates with emcha loss rates in similar circumstances.

The Russians didn't use any western tanks, apart from the Churchill ( and even then that was just because it had lots of armour). The Soviet put the tanks on the border with Japan, so more native tanks could be used against the Germans.

I can't recall where I heard it, and I'm paraphrasing, "The Sherman tanks arrived on the Eastern Front 2 years out of date by Soviet Standards."

"If SU were alone the germans would have beaten them with the superior tanks they had."

Those German Tanks that were notoriously unreliable in winter? It wasn't until the Panther and Tiger I tanks that the Germans got a decent tank that could go up against the Soviets, and even then the Soviets had the IS-1 and IS-2 tanks, which were superior to both German Models.

Which is also beside the point, better tanks do not win a war, a better economy, better logistics, better strategy and so on win wars.
 
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chepaeff

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The Russians didn't use any western tanks, apart from the Churchill ( and even then that was just because it had lots of armour). The Soviet put the tanks on the border with Japan, so more native tanks could be used against the Germans.

That's not true. Valentines, Matildas, Grants and Lees and even few Tetrachs were used. Not all of them had good reputation but they still were used.
 

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http://english.battlefield.ru/dmitriy-loza.html
The Russians didn't use any western tanks, apart from the Churchill ( and even then that was just because it had lots of armour). The Soviet put the tanks on the border with Japan, so more native tanks could be used against the Germans.

I can't recall where I heard it, and I'm paraphrasing, "The Sherman tanks arrived on the Eastern Front 2 years out of date by Soviet Standards."

"If SU were alone the germans would have beaten them with the superior tanks they had."

Those German Tanks that were notoriously unreliable in winter? It wasn't until the Panther and Tiger I tanks that the Germans got a decent tank that could go up against the Soviets, and even then the Soviets had the IS-1 and IS-2 tanks, which were superior to both German Models.

Which is also beside the point, better tanks do not win a war, a better economy, better logistics, better strategy and so on win wars.

Definately not true:

http://english.battlefield.ru/dmitriy-loza.html

Here is an interview with a tank commander who fought in T34's and in M4 Shermans - in fact in the latter portions of the war his unit was equipped exclusively with the Sherman tank. He has lots to say about both tanks - good and bad. Some of the deficiencies he notes were corrected as the war went on.

a few exerpts:

- On Shermans. We called them "Emchas", from M4 [in Russian, em chetyrye]. Initially they had the short main gun, and later they began to arrive with the long gun and muzzle brake. On the front slope armor there was a travel lock for securing the barrel during road marches. The main gun was quite long. Overall, this was a good vehicle but, as with any tank, it had its pluses and minuses. When someone says to me that this was a bad tank, I respond, "Excuse me!" One cannot say that this was a bad tank. Bad as compared to what?

The Sherman had its weaknesses, the greatest of which was its high center of gravity. The tank frequently tipped over on its side, like a Matryoshka doll (a wooden stacking doll). But I am alive today thanks to this deficiency. We were fighting in Hungary in December 1944. I was leading the battalion and on a turn my driver-mechanic clipped a curb. My tank went over on its side. We were thrown around, of course, but we survived the experience. Meanwhile the other four of my tanks went ahead and drove into an ambush. They were all destroyed.

I believe that the service life of the T-34 track was 2500 kilometers. The service life of the Sherman track was in excess of 5000 kilometers. Secondly, The Sherman drove like a car on hard surfaces, and our T-34 made so much noise that only the devil knows how many kilometers away it could be heard. What was the bad side of the Sherman track? an incident that occurred in August 1944 in Romania, during the Jassy-Kishinev Operation. The heat was fearsome, somewhere around 30° C. We had driven approximately 100 km along a highway in a single day. The rubber linings on our support rollers got so hot that the rubber separated and peeled off in long pieces. Our corps paused not far from Bucharest. The rubber was flying around, the rollers had begun to jam up, the noise was terrible, and in the end we had been stopped. This was immediately reported to Moscow. Was this some kind of joke, an entire corps had halted? To our surprise, they brought new support rollers to us quickly and we spent three days installing them. I still don't know where they found so many support rollers in such a short time. There was yet another minus of rubber track. Even on a slightly icy surface the tank slid around like a fat cow. When this happened we had to tie barbed wire around the track or make grousers out of chains or bolts, anything to give us traction. But this was with the first shipment of tanks. Having seen this, the American representative reported to his company and the next shipment of tanks was accompanied by additional track blocks with grousers and spikes. If I recall, there were up to seven blocks for each track, for a total of fourteen per tank. We carried them in our parts bin. In general the American representative worked efficiently. Any deficiency that he observed and reported was quickly and effectively corrected.

One more shortcoming of the Sherman was the construction of the driver's hatch. The hatch on the first shipment of Shermans was located in the roof of the hull and simply opened upward. Frequently the driver-mechanic opened it and raised his head in order to see better. There were several occasions when during the rotation of the turret the main gun struck this hatch and knocked it into the driver's head. We had this happen once or twice in my own unit. Later the Americans corrected this deficiency. Now the hatch rose up and simply moved to the side, like on modern tanks.

Still one great plus of the Sherman was in the charging of its batteries. On our T-34 it was necessary to run the engine, all 500 horsepower of it, in order to charge batteries. In the crew compartment of the Sherman was an auxiliary gasoline engine, small like a motorcycle's one. Start it up and it charged the batteries. This was a big deal to us!

For a long time after the war I sought an answer to one question. If a T-34 started burning, we tried to get as far away from it as possible, even though this was forbidden. The on-board ammunition exploded. For a brief period of time, perhaps six weeks, I fought on a T-34 around Smolensk. The commander of one of our companies was hit in his tank. The crew jumped out of the tank but were unable to run away from it because the Germans were pinning them down with machine gun fire. They lay there in the wheat field as the tank burned and blew up. By evening, when the battle had waned, we went to them. I found the company commander lying on the ground with a large piece of armor sticking out of his head. When a Sherman burned, the main gun ammunition did not explode.

Our tank (a sherman) was hit. We jumped out of it but the Germans were dropping mortar rounds around us. We lay under the tank as it burned. We laid there a long time with nowhere to go. The Germans were covering the empty field around the tank with machine gun and mortar fires. We lay there. The uniform on my back was beginning heating up from the burning tank. We thought we were finished! We would hear a big bang and it would all be over! A brother's grave! We heard many loud thumps coming from the turret. This was the armor-piercing rounds being blown out of their cases. Next the fire would reach the high explosive rounds and all hell would break loose! But nothing happened. Why not? Because our high explosive rounds detonated and the American rounds did not? In the end it was because the American ammunition had more refined explosives

the Sherman was very well appointed on the inside. Was this true?
it was painted beautifully. Secondly, the seats were comfortable, covered with some kind of remarkable special artificial leather. If a tank was knocked out or damaged, then if it was left unguarded literally for just several minutes the infantry would strip out all this upholstery. It made excellent boots!

The Sherman could never defeat a Tiger with a frontal shot. We had to force the Tiger to expose its flank. If we were defending and the Germans were attacking, we had a special tactic. Two Shermans were designated for each Tiger. The first Sherman fired at the track and broke it. For a brief space of time the heavy vehicle still moved forward on one track, which caused it to turn. At this moment the second Sherman shot it in the side, trying to hit the fuel cell. This is how we did it.

I want also to add that the Sherman's armor was tough. There were cases on our T-34 when a round struck and did not penetrate. But the crew was wounded because pieces of armor flew off the inside wall and struck the crewmen in the hands and eyes. This never happened on the Sherman.
 

Bad_Haggis

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Okay, I'm quoting from Barbarossa by Alan Clark verbatim.

"During the first months of 1942 a number of tanks from factories in Britian and the United States were delivered by the northern sea route to Murmansk an overland from Persia. What happened to these deliveries remains a mystery ( Ogorkiewicz gives the totals as 5,258 from the US, 4,260 from Britian and 1,220 from Canada. The majority of these deliveries were made during the summer and autum of 1942 and 1943, but it seems probable that at least 1,000 had been delivered by the start of the 1942 campaign.)

The Russians, very understandably, rejected the majority as being unfit for combat. (It is some commentary on the lag in Western tank design that the only model produced which would have been any use in the East, the Sherman, did not come off the production lines until, by Russian standards, it was already obsolete."

It goes on to say that although a few British infantry tanks ( Matilda and Churchill types ) were used in "Independent Brigades" where they were acceptable because of their very thick frontal armour, "the majority of the Western Tanks were distributed among the quiescentness or non-combative theatres such as the Finnish Front and the Far East".
 

chepaeff

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Okay, I'm quoting from Barbarossa by Alan Clark verbatim.

"During the first months of 1942 a number of tanks from factories in Britian and the United States were delivered by the northern sea route to Murmansk an overland from Persia. What happened to these deliveries remains a mystery ( Ogorkiewicz gives the totals as 5,258 from the US, 4,260 from Britian and 1,220 from Canada. The majority of these deliveries were made during the summer and autum of 1942 and 1943, but it seems probable that at least 1,000 had been delivered by the start of the 1942 campaign.)

The Russians, very understandably, rejected the majority as being unfit for combat. (It is some commentary on the lag in Western tank design that the only model produced which would have been any use in the East, the Sherman, did not come off the production lines until, by Russian standards, it was already obsolete."

It goes on to say that although a few British infantry tanks ( Matilda and Churchill types ) were used in "Independent Brigades" where they were acceptable because of their very thick frontal armour, "the majority of the Western Tanks were distributed among the quiescentness or non-combative theatres such as the Finnish Front and the Far East".

In what year this book was published? 1960? :rofl:
 

Bad_Haggis

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Probably, the copy I have is the 1995 one .

:wacko:
 

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Okay, I'm quoting from Barbarossa by Alan Clark verbatim.

"During the first months of 1942 a number of tanks from factories in Britian and the United States were delivered by the northern sea route to Murmansk an overland from Persia. What happened to these deliveries remains a mystery ( Ogorkiewicz gives the totals as 5,258 from the US, 4,260 from Britian and 1,220 from Canada. The majority of these deliveries were made during the summer and autum of 1942 and 1943, but it seems probable that at least 1,000 had been delivered by the start of the 1942 campaign.)

The Russians, very understandably, rejected the majority as being unfit for combat. (It is some commentary on the lag in Western tank design that the only model produced which would have been any use in the East, the Sherman, did not come off the production lines until, by Russian standards, it was already obsolete."

It goes on to say that although a few British infantry tanks ( Matilda and Churchill types ) were used in "Independent Brigades" where they were acceptable because of their very thick frontal armour, "the majority of the Western Tanks were distributed among the quiescentness or non-combative theatres such as the Finnish Front and the Far East".

The guy from my quote says the same thing - basically all the british designs were useless - he goes on to state exactly why too - underpowered, poor cross country performance, inadequate firepower, difficult to repair, etc.
 

CruelDwarf

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Okay, I'm quoting from Barbarossa by Alan Clark verbatim.
The Russians, very understandably, rejected the majority as being unfit for combat. (It is some commentary on the lag in Western tank design that the only model produced which would have been any use in the East, the Sherman, did not come off the production lines until, by Russian standards, it was already obsolete."

It goes on to say that although a few British infantry tanks ( Matilda and Churchill types ) were used in "Independent Brigades" where they were acceptable because of their very thick frontal armour, "the majority of the Western Tanks were distributed among the quiescentness or non-combative theatres such as the Finnish Front and the Far East".


2cb72632f931f3d207907d3b4208778d.jpg

M3 Stuart of 241th Tank Brigade, july 1942, near Don river (also you may see a M3 Lee on the background)

Stalingrad_M3_oct-42.jpg

m3s_li_stalingrad42.jpg

M3 Lee knocked out by anti-tank guns or captured by forces of 3rd Motorized Divison of 6th Army. Same unit, same place and time.

The guy from my quote says the same thing - basically all the british designs were useless - he goes on to state exactly why too - underpowered, poor cross country performance, inadequate firepower, difficult to repair, etc.
Valentine was considered as very good design. Soviets stopped own light tank production in its favor.
 
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gagenater

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2cb72632f931f3d207907d3b4208778d.jpg

M3 Stuart of 241th Tank Brigade, july 1942, near Don river (also you may see a M3 Lee on the background)

Stalingrad_M3_oct-42.jpg

m3s_li_stalingrad42.jpg

M3 Lee knocked out by anti-tank guns or captured by forces of 3rd Motorized Divison of 6th Army. Same unit, same place and time.


Valentine was considered as very good design. Soviets stopped own light tank production in its favor.

Read the link I had - he did in particular single out the Valentine as having an adequate gun, and reasonable cross country performance.
 

StephenT

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British lend-lease tanks to the USSR, 1941-44:

20 x Tetrarch light tanks
932 x Matilda infantry tanks - the Russians thought they were too slow, had a weak gun and handled poorly in the snow.
258 x Churchill infantry tanks - the Russians disliked these as well
3260 x Valentine tanks - the Russians loved them, and used them as scout tanks.
6 x Cromwell cruiser tanks

US lend-lease to the USSR:

1681 x M3/M5 Stuart light tanks
2 x M24 Chaffee light tanks
1386 x M3 Lee medium tanks - called the 'coffin for six brothers' by the Russians due to their poor performance in combat
4092 x M4 Sherman medium tanks
1 x M26 Pershing heavy tank


I assume the one M26 was given to Soviet tank designers to study and reverse-engineer, though it's appealing to think it was given to Stalin as his own personal tank.
 

Bad_Haggis

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2cb72632f931f3d207907d3b4208778d.jpg

M3 Stuart of 241th Tank Brigade, july 1942, near Don river (also you may see a M3 Lee on the background)

Stalingrad_M3_oct-42.jpg

m3s_li_stalingrad42.jpg

M3 Lee knocked out by anti-tank guns or captured by forces of 3rd Motorized Divison of 6th Army. Same unit, same place and time.

police03.jpg


t-34_hex_59.jpg


t-34_hex_63.jpg


The Germans certainly liked the T34, Heinz Guderian told the High Command that they should just copy the T34 as it was better than any German Armour.
 

CruelDwarf

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The Germans certainly liked the T34, Heinz Guderian told the High Command that they should just copy the T34 as it was better than any German Armour.
This is mostly post-war myth. In practice germans almost never used T-34 in own frontline units if there was any alternative to it.
T-34s in your photos belonged to one of the tank battalions of "Das Reich" SS division in summer of 1943. This division suffered heavy losses in previous months and it could not fully reinforced. So germans used captured T-34 refurbished by local means in Kharkov.

And Guderian himself called T-34 "a typical example of obsolete bolshevik's technology" in his letter sent to german High Command in 21 of october, 1941. After some failures in later months he changed his position somewhat, of course. But alleged superiority of russian armor was only justification for his failure.
 
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