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jurrz12

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It's worth remembering that there is more than a tank than armor and guns. The Sherman was sucessful because it was cheap, reliable, and got the job done well enough.

It's actually very similar to the T-34 in that way: In a 1v1 a tiger would almost always beat both a Sherman and a T-34, but Shermans and T-34s were never alone.
 

Zinegata

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It's worth remembering that there is more than a tank than armor and guns. The Sherman was sucessful because it was cheap, reliable, and got the job done well enough.

It's actually very similar to the T-34 in that way: In a 1v1 a tiger would almost always beat both a Sherman and a T-34, but Shermans and T-34s were never alone.

The fabled "1 tiger vs 1 Sherman/T-34" thing never happened in the first place. It was, with one verified exception, a platoon or company of Tigers fighting an equivalent formation of Shermans or T-34s, and contrary to popular belief the medium tanks in fact generally won unless it was on the Eastern Front in 1943, in which case the Tigers did better primarily because of crew experience.

The exception really just boils down to Wittman's solo attack at Villers Bocage, celebrated as a "brilliant" attack but in reality was a premature and foolhardy assault by a lone tank against a regiment that only worked because Wittman got incredibly lucky until his tank was knocked out by a 57mm gun. And it ignores that his reckless actions alerted the British regiment to its weakness and prepared them for the eventual attack of the rest of Wittman's battalion - which was essentially annihilated in the subsequent fighting.
 
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Imgran

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Yep. People laud its fearsome reputation but in the end the Tiger tank was of the paper variety. The Panther and the Tiger (Tiger less so than the Panther) are case studies in why armor thickness and gun performance are not even the most important features of a battletank.

The most important thing a battletank can do is permit your army to fight in all situations in a method of battle that accomplishes its strategic objectives.

With its legendary lack of maintenance requirements, reasonable speed and engine performance and, decent gun simple and easy operation, the Sherman fulfilled the needs of the American army that liked to attack aggressively and needed good tanks with speed and in large numbers to do this. By being a reliable enough machine to permit aggressive leaders to carry the attack more sustainably, and in more different terrains and weather conditions, than any other tank in the war the Sherman made generals like George Patton its champion and made itself a war winner.

With its ability to be mass produced with legendary simplicy, as well as the fact that any Russian peasant could be hauled out of the infantry, thrown headlong into the tank and quickly learn how to operate it, the T-34 served Soviet strategic needs by allowing them to keep the numbers of active tanks strong enough to check and counter the enemy simultaneously in the middle of a war of attrition with a more technologically advanced superpower. Soviet generals managed what French commanders failed -- turn their defense into a quagmire into which German armies entered and did not return, and as an attritional war tank, the T-34 is without peer in WWII because of just how many you could lose and still have factories churning out fresh fighting forces of brand-new T-34's. to go over the top in the next wave. This ability to bring ever and ever new T-34's into exhausted Wehrmacht units was what ultimately drove the Reich back all the way to Berlin and beyond.

The Tiger didn't really do this and the Panther certainly didn't. They were tank killers almost exclusively against enemies that were heavy with infantry, their mechanical unreliability played against the need of the Wehrmacht to counterattack in order to survive the war (more Panthers and Tigers were lost in counterattacks than were lost in any other type of war operation and it was in German counterattacks where the kill ratios always least favored German armor), and the overall all-situation performance you need from a frontline battletank was just not there with either of these tanks but especially not the Panther.

The Tiger in particular also wasn't a particularly forward thinking tank. The thing was basically an overgrown Pz IV. Armor thickness was all it really had going for it but it was still a box with 90 degree sides, which was known at the time to be a very poor way to lay out tank armor (even technological dead ends like the M3 medium and the Char B1 had frontal sloping).

At least when the Americans tried the exact same stunt with the M6 heavy (AKA the Sherman XXXL) they had the good sense to get a good look at the result and not send it into battle.

The Tiger was yet another rush job that limped along for awhile because they took old ideas and got the most they could out of them but it was ultimately a technological dead and and dare I say it, a failed tank. for all its tremendous reputation the Tiger did not accomplish what Germany needed out of a frontline heavy tank and the resources spent developing and building Tigers should probably have been spent elsewhere.

I read somewhere that you could build 5 StuG III's for the cost in material and man-hours spent to build a single Henschel Tiger and 5 StuG's was much closer to what Germany needed at the time, or perhaps a dozen or so truck towed crew served PaK 40 75mm AT guns. They were desperate to make up the growing disparities in numbers and the Tiger played against that. Their effort to counter quantity with quality was interesting, but ultimately they lacked the teconology to really accomplish that end.
 
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G

Gethsemani

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The Tiger didn't really do this and the Panther certainly didn't. They were tank killers almost exclusively against enemies that were heavy with infantry, their mechanical unreliability played against the need of the Wehrmacht to counterattack in order to survive the war (more Panthers and Tigers were lost in counterattacks than were lost in any other type of war operation and it was in German counterattacks where the kill ratios always least favored German armor), and the overall all-situation performance you need from a frontline battletank was just not there with either of these tanks but especially not the Panther.

First off, the 88mm KwK36 had a good (if not stellar) HE round and it allowed the Tiger I to perform equally against armored and soft targets.

Secondly, counterattacks are always the most dangerous attacks to make, no matter if you are infantry or armor. You are going in to dislodge an enemy who has had time to re-purpose your own fighting positions against you, who just need to hold out until their back-up arrives and are motivated to not give ground. To do so you often have nothing but a prepared counterattack force of the mechanized variety and you can't count on preparatory artillery barrages or air support, since you are attacking unscouted positions and the enemy is on the offensive and is likely to be vying for air superiority, if not having it.
Counterattacks are nightmarish because of this, you are essentially going in blind with none of the preparations that usually come with attacking and with the hopes that you can arrive faster than enemy reinforcements or exploitation forces can. It is no wonder German Armor had bad kill-loss ratios in counterattacks, because most armor has bad kill-loss ratios in counterattacks.

Good post apart from this little nitpick though.
 

Cavalry

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Tiger I was designed for leading an attack. At that time the German still wait for them to start the Kursk campaign 1943. They may not be economic if used widely, but put them at the tip of the sword of an armour offensive, at the hand of the best leaders and crews, and used them over and over again, they will be leveraged and can pay for themselves. This is the Schwerpunkt theory (maximum power to the crucial point)

However their design are rushed and need to be replaced by Tiger II.
 
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Denkt

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The fabled "1 tiger vs 1 Sherman/T-34" thing never happened in the first place. It was, with one verified exception, a platoon or company of Tigers fighting an equivalent formation of Shermans or T-34s, and contrary to popular belief the medium tanks in fact generally won unless it was on the Eastern Front in 1943, in which case the Tigers did better primarily because of crew experience.

The exception really just boils down to Wittman's solo attack at Villers Bocage, celebrated as a "brilliant" attack but in reality was a premature and foolhardy assault by a lone tank against a regiment that only worked because Wittman got incredibly lucky until his tank was knocked out by a 57mm gun. And it ignores that his reckless actions alerted the British regiment to its weakness and prepared them for the eventual attack of the rest of Wittman's battalion - which was essentially annihilated in the subsequent fighting.

Main reason to the advantage of the Sherman and T-34 was not the tank itself but all the support they would have that German tanks lacked. Germany could not mass produce tanks like US and Soviet as they lacked the resources and technology to do so. Although Germany could have been better of with lighter designs it would not win them the war.

Maybe the biggest advantage of T-34 was its great mobility thanks to the christie supension while not being a light tank.
 
G

Gethsemani

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Main reason to the advantage of the Sherman and T-34 was not the tank itself but all the support they would have that German tanks lacked. Germany could not mass produce tanks like US and Soviet as they lacked the resources and technology to do so. Although Germany could have been better of with lighter designs it would not win them the war.

Maybe the biggest advantage of T-34 was its great mobility thanks to the christie supension while not being a light tank.

Except, the performance of the tanks themselves very much set them apart. The T-34 begun the war as the most heavily armored and best armed medium tank on any front (in 1940) and was such a shock to the German military that they designed both the Tiger I and the Panther with the explicit intention that they be counters to the T-34. The Panther itself began as a direct copy of the T-34 but eventually ended up forfeiting almost all of the actual strengths of the T-34 except for frontal armor and anti-tank firepower. The Panzer IV was a decent design, but only because it was constantly being improved upon throughout the war, whereas the T-34 had one significant upgrade (T-34/85) that kept it viable as a main medium tank. The Sherman had plenty of upgrades, as a design function and not an emergency solution, but the initial 75mm armed M4 was still a viable medium tank by 1945.

The truth is that Germany managed to off-set the drawback of their lackluster tank designs by saturating their infantry formations with an overwhelming amount of anti-tank weaponry and by fighting defensively for all of the late war, which meant that the mechanical unreliability of their tanks didn't matter as much as it would have had they been attacking. There are very good reasons why the StuG III is the "best" German fighting vehicle of WW2 in terms of kill-loss ratio, which is not only that it was a good design in its' own rights but because the German tanks simply didn't live up to their reputations. The Panther in particular is a very telling example of how German engineers simply did not understand what was required of a good tank.
 

CruelDwarf

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Tiger I was in design since 1938 or so. T-34 did not influence it at all. In fact Tiger in its latest form was designed on the experiences of French Campaign and for future landings in Britain because such tank is absolutely perfect for protecting the beacheads against counter-attacks by british armor.
 

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What, you think the Royal Navy would just sit between Denmark and Norway?

I am aware that R.N. could not be between this to conttries because of the risk for bombs, mines and submarines.What I ment it was a gamble to attack Narvik and the nothern parts of

Norway from the sea, here was R.N. the ruler.
 

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I am aware that R.N. could not be between this to conttries because of the risk for bombs, mines and submarines.What I ment it was a gamble to attack Narvik and the nothern parts of Norway from the sea, here was R.N. the ruler.
It's worth noting that while the gamble paid off for Germany in the sense that they conquered Norway, it also crippled their navy. I think over half their ships were either sunk or seriously damaged and out of action for the rest of the year - which was a big factor in why they couldn't later invade Britain.
 

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Tiger I was in design since 1938 or so. T-34 did not influence it at all. In fact Tiger in its latest form was designed on the experiences of French Campaign and for future landings in Britain because such tank is absolutely perfect for protecting the beacheads against counter-attacks by british armor.

Boy, finding volunteers for manning a LCT fitted for Tigers would have been fun.
 

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ConjurerDragon

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A Tiger weighed 3 times more.

And as the article stated that LCT was designed for landing *at least* 3 36ton tanks - so for transporting 2 tigers a it wouldn´t need to be much different.
 
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