• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

ConjurerDragon

Generalissimus
79 Badges
Apr 19, 2005
5.513
578
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Impire
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • East India Company Collection
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
And would have been functionally useless even a single year later, outclassed by an early-model m4 Sherman that itself was largely considered underpowered.

Again, the problem with French armor isn't that it couldn't have faced the tanks it was tasked to deal with. The Somua S35, the Char D2, even the Char B1 if you managed to somehow prevent it from being flanked, these tanks could take down German armor in a firefight in 1940, but German tanks in 1940 were nothing compared to German tanks in 1943, and there just was not the potential in French models to upgrade their tanks in the same way.

Compare that to the M4 Sherman that could be upgraded again and again because it was big and roomy enough to take new engines and had a huge turret ring that could support larger turrets that could bear larger bore guns without fundamentally changing the design of the chassis (and therefore without needing to design a whole new tank to face a new threat on the battlefield). That was a conscious design choice by Americans who entered the war suspecting they were behind the armored arms race and needed a tank that could allow them to easily play catch-up as needed. That pragmatic design choice turned out to be precisely the right noe.

Having the luxury to enter the war 2 years late and observing what happened in Europe does that. :rolleyes:
A fairer comparison for the french tanks of 1940 would not be the 1942 M4 Sherman and not even the 1941 M3 but the M1 and M2 :oops:

Meanwhile French turrets that could support a 47mm gun could only ever support a 47mm gun and no gun larger tha a 47mm gun could ever be mounted on them.

The most numerous german tank in the french campaign was the Pz II with a 2 cm gun so the french gun actually was better at the time.
 

gagenater

Field Marshal
20 Badges
May 18, 2004
3.657
224
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
And would have been functionally useless even a single year later, outclassed by an early-model m4 Sherman that itself was largely considered underpowered.

Again, the problem with French armor isn't that it couldn't have faced the tanks it was tasked to deal with. The Somua S35, the Char D2, even the Char B1 if you managed to somehow prevent it from being flanked, these tanks could take down German armor in a firefight in 1940, but German tanks in 1940 were nothing compared to German tanks in 1943, and there just was not the potential in French models to upgrade their tanks in the same way.

Compare that to the M4 Sherman that could be upgraded again and again because it was big and roomy enough to take new engines and had a huge turret ring that could support larger turrets that could bear larger bore guns without fundamentally changing the design of the chassis (and therefore without needing to design a whole new tank to face a new threat on the battlefield). That was a conscious design choice by Americans who entered the war suspecting they were behind the armored arms race and needed a tank that could allow them to easily play catch-up as needed. That pragmatic design choice turned out to be precisely the right noe.

Meanwhile French turrets that could support a 47mm gun could only ever support a 47mm gun and no gun larger tha a 47mm gun could ever be mounted on them. Similarly, French hulls were not built to accept a better engine than the one they were "born" with. In each case, needing more engine power or a heavier gun would require designing an entirely new tank to mount them, which makes any effort to quickly upgrade your armored force take longer and be more problematic than it had to be. That turned out to matter, as French rearmament was delayed and then delayed again when an adaptable design might have streamlined the process and prevented countless issues, maybe even saved their country.

The British had the same issue but used imported American tanks to cover it, and ultimately incorporated their native technologies into the Sherman resulting in weapons like the Sherman Firefly. France fell before the US entered the war so it didn't have that luxury.

Ironically the only other nation to see that far ahead were the Russians, who also built some adaptability into their T-34 which allowed it to retain its relevance even as guns, turrets and engines started to go out of date and need replacing with better models.

Although whether that was their fault, or whether it's becauee they piggybacked their design on an American inventor's prototype that catered to US army design philosophies, and that adaptability was inherent in the original design, is a matter worth speculating about. It's common knowledge that the granddaddy of the T-34 is the M1931 Christie, which was built to US army specs even though the Army eventually walked away from it. Russia managed to obtain a copy of that tank and used it as a starting point for the BT series that led directly to the T-34. So who knows.

To be fair, the Germans were also pretty good at 'designing in' upgradability. The PzII, III and IV all saw very significant upgrades as the war went on, transforming from scout/breakthrough tanks to light fast self propelled tank destroyers, from anti tank to specialized infantry tanks, and transforming from an infantry support tank to an early front line MBT respectively.
 

Graf Zeppelin

NATO ante portas
42 Badges
Mar 19, 2006
4.090
18.879
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
To be fair, the Germans were also pretty good at 'designing in' upgradability. The PzII, III and IV all saw very significant upgrades as the war went on, transforming from scout/breakthrough tanks to light fast self propelled tank destroyers, from anti tank to specialized infantry tanks, and transforming from an infantry support tank to an early front line MBT respectively.
Especially the PZIV , it was able to fight through the whole war. Not bad for a 1934 design.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Cavalry

Field Marshal
8 Badges
Jul 24, 2001
5.295
1.352
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
Well let's be fair on that score, there's always a lag time between design and production -- if you're smart. 5 year old designs being your frontline armor in that situation aren't utterly unreasonable, when it comes down to it most major powers today are using armor types first designed and built in the late 1970's and early 80's. .

With Hitler come to power on 1933, a 1935 design used in 1940 war was still acceptable. But it was unacceptable that there was no newer design. Stalin was much better to prepare his country for war.
 

BaronNoir

Field Marshal
On Probation
70 Badges
Sep 25, 2003
4.497
1.420
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Some French tactical conceptions on tank use were not this bad (France was however very ill equippped to implement to them)

Placing a tank battalion (50 tanks) in most first class infantry divisions was a sound concept to stiffen infantry divisions : the rest of the war proved well enough that tank charges only work to some degree. It's quite ironic too that panzers were used after 1943 exactly like how French DCR were conceived to work : mobile fast response force to plug holes in the front.
 

f1nalstand17

Colonel
51 Badges
Nov 17, 2014
835
93
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
Some French tactical conceptions on tank use were not this bad (France was however very ill equippped to implement to them)

Placing a tank battalion (50 tanks) in most first class infantry divisions was a sound concept to stiffen infantry divisions : the rest of the war proved well enough that tank charges only work to some degree. It's quite ironic too that panzers were used after 1943 exactly like how French DCR were conceived to work : mobile fast response force to plug holes in the front.

Well that's because Germany was on the defensive, a position Hitler never predicted Germany would be in.
 

Cavalry

Field Marshal
8 Badges
Jul 24, 2001
5.295
1.352
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
It really is impossible to hate too much on French armored philosophy. All Some of their tank designs were decent enough when they were built, but all of them were built with an eye backward on the past or at best only to deal with existing threats, not one was designed with an eye forward into the future. As a result all of their tanks were designed far too tightly around current capability, their hulls were only just big enough to take just the engine thet had, their turret rings were exactly built to take only just the gun they had with no spare capacity anywhere. .

The most important thing for design is tank doctrine and experience. German and Soviet get their experience and polish their mobile war doctrine in Spanish Civil War and battle of Khalkin Gol against Japan.

On the upgradabiltiy, tank design was nearly always on the limits of engine and armor technology. The French heavy tank was already too slow and the one man turret would not benefit from bigger gun. So made it bigger and slower would not help. The German just got lucky with their designs. Panzer IV had to change role from infantry support to fighting tank, thank to its speed it can do it. Panzer III was first designed to use a bigger gun (50mm), so there was room to upgrade when it used 37mm gun instead.
 

BaronNoir

Field Marshal
On Probation
70 Badges
Sep 25, 2003
4.497
1.420
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
The kind of issues French military reformers got into would be farcical in other countries. Every single suggestion/idea/reformed could be coined and would be coined in terms of Left vs Right, Republic vs Reaction and so forth. (not to mention that the French Army was extremely hostile to innovation. Napoléon III, supposedly an inept commander, had to insist to make his commanders accept the Chassepot rifle, and they flat out refused to use the machine gun''

ACTUAL examples :

''We should really change the color of the army pants, blood red is a bit obvious...''

''I knew it ! It's a dastardly plot by those godless republicans to remove the good old tradition of the army !''

OR

''That stuff like ''tactics'' or ''strategy'' is for reactionnaries ! CAMOUFLAGE IS THE COLOR OF COWARDICE (they almost say that verbartim) A true republican soldier charge ahead !''

''Considering that we actually used to great effect motorized divisions, maybe we should go on this way'' ?

''That's again a plot of the Free Masonry to destroy French institutions ! They want use to use trucks with mechanics (Parisian red mechanics) instead of good horses cared for by peasant lads with good values''

OR

''The army want to create a pretorian guard to destroy the Republic'' !
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Cavalry

Field Marshal
8 Badges
Jul 24, 2001
5.295
1.352
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
Exactly. I meant that the whole concept of using tanks in defence was not that stupid.

Mobile defense is good. But the French's mistake was spreading the tank to the infantry, at the time when tanks was scared, and don't have strong enough mobile armor force. Later in the war the American also have many tanks in infantry divisions, but they still have enough tank for their tanks corps. Because at that time they have a lot of tank.
 

Imgran

General
28 Badges
Nov 2, 2003
2.170
1.554
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Mobile defense is good. But the French's mistake was spreading the tank to the infantry, at the time when tanks was scared, and don't have strong enough mobile armor force. Later in the war the American also have many tanks in infantry divisions, but they still have enough tank for their tanks corps. Because at that time they have a lot of tank.

No, their mistake was relying on tank designs that were badly underengined, so they could not cover a good amount of ground. If their tanks had had better range and speed they would hace been able to protect more ground with fewer tanks and that would have allowed them to mass armor for counterattacks.
 

Zinegata

General
34 Badges
Oct 11, 2005
1.865
905
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I'm just curious over one point.

We can agree, I think, that generally amateur historians states that the T-34 was an excellent model while the Sherman M4 was a clunker.

While (relative) mechanical reliability and ease of production are of course important values, it's quite puzzling that the Sherman M4 have such a dreary reputation considering that it lost around 4500 units in WW2, while T-34s losses were around 48 000.

Because most amateurs are badly misinformed; quite a lot of the posting here in fact just keep repeating the same bad myths from the same bad surces.

The Sherman's bad reputation was a relatively recent invention, stemming largely from Belton Cooper's (ghost written by Stephen Ambrose) "Death Traps". It's largely from him that the "five Shermans to kill a Panther/Tiger" nonsense started; which became a favorite meme by German fanboy sites despite the fact that they didn't have any actual evidence to support it.

The problem is that Cooper was never a frontline combat officer and Ambrose frankly sucks as a historian and to his dying days still thought the Panther had an 88mm gun; and never realized that the US Army encountered the Tiger I a grand total of only three times during the entire ETO - and of those three engagements only one might have involved a Sherman at all.

Sure, there were complaints about its combat performance in June 1944 particularly among the US Army, but what's significant is that the US Army hadn't even encountered a single Tiger or Panther in Normandy at this point. Most of the complaints instead stemmed from the fact that most Sherman tankers landed in June were highly inexperienced and a bit panicky; constantly reporting Tigers and Panthers when the Germans only had a handful of Stugs and captured French Somouas. By the end of the month most of these panicky officers had learned their lessons or were replaced, and the first encounter between the Panther and Sherman was an unmitigated disaster for the Panthers who suffered 25% losses. Wrecks recovered from the defeat allowed the US Army to test the Panther around July 9 near Isigny, which confirmed that more than 75% of the Panther's surface area could be penetrated by the Sherman's gun.

Indeed, I recently got my hands on a report which detailed every single US Army Sherman vs Panther engagements in ETO, and the results are pretty shocking. In total, 30 engagements were fought, involving approximately 200 Shermans in total against 150 Panthers; averaging 6 Shermans and 5 Panthers per engagement. In total, a mere 20 Shermans were destroyed in these 30 engagements, compared to the loss of 72 (!) Panthers. So the old wive's tale that it took five Shermans to kill a Panther is now definitively and thoroughly debunked and in fact reality was a total 180: It in fact took three to four Panthers to kill a single Sherman. The only vehicle the Panther could manage 5:1 kill rates on were M8 greyhounds or M5 Stuarts.

In short, the Sherman wasn't merely decent. It was unquestionably good. It was in fact so good that, contrary to many accounts, the Soviets actually absolutely adored their Shermans and assigned them exclusively to Guards Tank Divisions. Their evaluation (c/o Walter's Dunn's "The Soviet Economy and the Red Army") declared that the Sherman was fully capable of engaging the Panther on even terms; something that was derided when Dunn published his translations of Soviet records in the 90s, but now seems to be nothing short of the truth given we now have a compilation of the actual results of every single Sherman vs Panther battle fought by the US Army in ETO.

====

As for the T-34, the problem with the 48,000 loss figure is that it implies the Soviet Union was left with less than 20,000 tanks by the end of the war; which is contrary to Western analyst estimates that they had over 40,000. Indeed, the oft-quoted loss figures would have left the Soviet Army with nearly as many T-70 tanks still in service as T-34s.

Recent studies however have shown that the issue primarily rests with differences in record-keeping. Soviet "losses" include all operational losses - the majority of which are recovered and repaired, whereas German losses are typically only permanent losses. This is why Soviet loss figures in fact sometimes exceed the number of tanks they started out with.

Hence, the 48,000 losses are extremely overstated, likely counting the same vehicle multiple times. It is in fact particularly important to remember that the T-34 wasn't a particularly common tank in the Red Army until 1943, because in 1942 the Soviets concentrated on the T-70 and T-60; and production standards were known to drop dramatically due to the massive economic dislocation of Barbarossa.

Still, it also bears remembering that the T-34 was not considered an ideal design even by the Soviets (who preferred the Sherman over their T-34s!), who saw it as a stopgap tank for a better design. They got stuck with it however because Barbarossa kept them from producing the newer, better designs they wanted. Indeed, that the T-54 came out in 1946 and was a much more capable tank for a weight addition of only 5 tons should demonstrate how advanced Soviet tank engineering actually was.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:

Zinegata

General
34 Badges
Oct 11, 2005
1.865
905
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
No, their mistake was relying on tank designs that were badly underengined, so they could not cover a good amount of ground. If their tanks had had better range and speed they would hace been able to protect more ground with fewer tanks and that would have allowed them to mass armor for counterattacks.

That's not the case at all. French cavalry tanks had perfectly acceptable ranges and engine power.

The tanks which had range issues were the infantry tanks - such as the famous Char Bs - but the thing about infantry tanks is that they were never meant to range free in the first place. Rather, they were infantry support weapons meant to help serve as a battering ram for breaking fixed positions.

Many amateurs make a lot of hay about this and claim that French doctrine was bad because of this, but in reality every army by the end of the war had dedicated armored "assault gun" or tank battalions attached to the infantry for support in this role. Armor in fact works very well with infantry and it was not stupid of the French to assign armored support for all its firstline infantry units.

The problem with the French was really just the tactical mistake they did in 1940 - which was to commit their reserves to Holland. The French in fact had a Panzer Armee equivalent in the form of 7th Army, which had two "cavalry" Divisions which nonetheless had almost as many tanks as a German Divsion (and better ones to boot) plus they sensibly had motorized infantry attached to the army to ensure combined-arms operations. The problem is that these reserves went to Holland, when the real thrust was through Sedan.
 

Imgran

General
28 Badges
Nov 2, 2003
2.170
1.554
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Hang on -- which cavalry tank models are you talking about here? I want to do some research and see what facts I don't have. Are we talking about the H35 and R35? because I'm under the impression that those were the primary tank of the cavalry arm and that their range was nearly as bad as the infantry tanks, and that they had less than half of the speed of the PzII they had to try to keep in check.

And again, I agree that the use of French tanks by their army is pretty conventional and history will defend the tactics the generals tried to use on the ground to get the most out of their armor. My beef is with the design philosophy and the tanks that came out of it, which were almost universally (except for the Somua and D2 which were solid designs but not produced in anything close to relevant numbers) among the worst in the war.
 

Zinegata

General
34 Badges
Oct 11, 2005
1.865
905
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I'm talking about the S-35 mostly which equipped the DLMs of 7th Army that actually faced a couple of German Panzer Divisions in Belgium. This was again the reserve that was supposed to shore up any holes in the line like Sedan but went to vainly try and link up with the Dutch instead.

The H35 was supposed to be an infantry tank to begin with, given to the cavalry only because the infantry didn't want it, while the R35s were also in the support role in independent tank battalions (none of which went to 7th Army). It was the AMR 35 which was the other tank that went to the DLMs in large numbers, which didn't really have range issues but were really just tankettes ala the Panzer I. The French had some stinker designs certainly, but the thought processes behind them weren't bad and in large part it's French industry that is to blame for the crappy tanks themselves.

To elaborate regarding design philosophy, the French believed (and were later vindicated) that the next war would favor a defender that had good, centralized artillery control, epitomized by the term "managed battle". Hence, their national army and economy was directed towards a defensive battle against the numerically superior German Army; which contrary to popular belief in fact made provisions for a complete defensive line extending well north of the Maginot that would take advantage of several defensive river lines within Belgium. See the Dyle Plan - named after the river the defensive position rested on - for more details.

The problem again is that any good defense is reliant on a mobile reserve that can shore up any holes or weakpoints in the line. Otherwise, the enemy will just pour through any hole in the line they manage to create. The French accounted for this by creating 7th Army, which was an all-motorized army that had a pair of cavalry/DLM Divisions. It was stationed centrally at Reims precisely so it can reinforce any spot where the Germans are breaking through - and notably Sedan was just a few dozen kilometers away from Reims.

Unfortunately, the French High Command made a terrible mistake and sent 7th Army to Holland instead, extending the Dyle line while trying to link up with the Dutch. That left the frontline French forces bereft of almost all reserves, which was why they ended up sending Char B tanks unsupported into battle in the first place - for want of reinforcements they were just throwing everything they had at the enemy.

It was this complete lack of reserves that was at issue, not the penny-packeting of the tanks nor the lack of range of the infantry tanks. French infantry tanks (especially the Char Bs) were not meant to do massed counter-attacks in the first place; instead they were supposed to support set-piece attacks against fortified positions. This is why the Cuirassier Divisions had no real infantry attached to them at all and ended up doing badly despite the gross disparity in armor and firepower between the Char Bs and the German Panzers.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Zinegata

General
34 Badges
Oct 11, 2005
1.865
905
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Tigers among them and in the middle of Agust had they knocked out over 500 tanks.Their own loss at the same date was 69 Tigers and maximum 43 could have come from allied

I am quite certain those are claims and not actual kills, because the 500 figure exceeds the number of Allied tanks that were actually lost to all kinds of enemy armor. It's typical German propaganda to be honest - the sole Tiger battalion in Tunisia claimed 150 kills despite missing every single major battle.

Allied tank losses in tank vs tank combat was very low in Normandy - practically non-existent in fact for the US Army who only encountered one Panzer Division and no Tigers at all. Only around 1,500 Allied tanks were lost in total, of which only 10% were lost to tank vs tank action.

Moreover, the three Tiger battalions were not very active. 101st SS for instance was virtually destroyed after Villers-Bocage and had only nine working Tigers for June and most of July.

The only really verifiable instances of Tigers doing well happened around early 1943 in the Eastern Front. Most of the rest turned out of be highly exaggerated accounts at best or complete fairy tales at worst.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

CruelDwarf

Major
2 Badges
Feb 15, 2008
726
334
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
The only really verifiable instances of Tigers doing well happened around early 1943 in the Eastern Front. Most of the rest turned out of be highly exaggerated accounts at best or complete fairy tales at worst.
I must note that Nashorns usually performed about as well as Tigers in the Eastern Front. So it is mostly because of cannon and not armor.
 

Imgran

General
28 Badges
Nov 2, 2003
2.170
1.554
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Well the Sturmgeschutz was actually a very very good armor design. Lightweight and well balanced with well sloped frontal armor and a very good l/70 gun. Was among the very best armor the Germans actually had once you get over the fact that it actually wasn't a tank but an assault gun. Easily the StuG did more to prosecute the war against the Allies than the Tiger ever could have done, if only because the StuG could be built in respectable numbers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.