Syracusan and Pelopenessian?

[cools0812]

We know three hellenic sub-cultures by now from screenshot teasers: Syracusan, Pelopenesian, and Macedonian.

Spoiler

It's great to have more cultural sub-divisions, but is it necessary to reinvent terms since we have a quite clear knowledge of how classical hellenic dialects is divided and the terms they identified each other as?

For the colonial cities, Syracuse was founded by colonists from Corinth and Tenea, so it is a Doric city just like Sparta, and as a result it was aided by Sparta in the Pelopennesian War, however in IR it's a separate culture from Sparta.

I wonder why cant we have the hellenic cultural group division in historically accurate way, since it will certainly add more immersion?

 

[Rabid]

For gameplay, basically. Culture groups in Paradox games haven't even vaguely been based along linguistic lines for years now.

 

[Arheo]

While this still isn't a finished culture set-up. it is important to note that our 'cultures' are not the same thing as languages. While they occasionally (and we try not to make this the case) share names with languages, they represent a shared way of living, a combination of art styles, social structures, and practices. Sometimes this will mean applying divisions based on modern interpretation, and will often be grouped according to gameplay concerns.

We often get the question (paraphrased), 'why is X city/country/area not Y culture, they were clearly a highly unique civilization?'. In a real-world simulation (which games are not), that might be the case - but the question shouldn't be 'where are cultures', it should be 'what are cultures'.

We know three hellenic sub-cultures by now from screenshot teasers: Syracusan, Pelopenesian, and Macedonian.
I wonder why cant we have the hellenic cultural group division in historically accurate way, since it will certainly add more immersion?

The picture you linked is helpful, and something we've seen before when researching, but a dialect map does not represent what we intend to, with our culture set up.

Nonetheless, if you have suggestions, please keep them coming.

Peter

 

[cools0812]

it is important to note that our 'cultures' are not the same thing as languages. While they occasionally (and we try not to make this the case) share names with languages, they represent a shared way of living, a combination of art styles, social structures, and practices.

But it's not just linguistic divisions. Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans, and Ionians are well established and well-known authentic terms for Classical Greek sub-identities. Rejecting and replacing them with invented terms serves no other purpose but breaking immersion for player well-versed in classical history.

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, 1.7.3:

Hellen had Dorus, Xuthus, and Aeolus1 by a nymph Orseis. Those who were called Greeks he named Hellenes after himself,2 and divided the country among his sons. Xuthus received Peloponnese and begat Achaeus and Ion by Creusa, daughter of Erechtheus, and from Achaeus and Ion the Achaeans and Ionians derive their names. Dorus received the country over against Peloponnese and called the settlers Dorians after himself.3 Aeolus reigned over the regions about Thessaly and named the inhabitants Aeolians.4

To understand how deeply those identities shaped Greek history, it should be noticed that Dorian-Ionian tension played a part in the outbreak of Peloponnesian War, as Athens demonstrated strong anti-Dorian sentiment and propaganda: https://doi.org/10.2307/631122
Back to the topic of Syracuse, during Peloponnesian War, Athenian launched the Sicilian Expedition against this Dorian city, fearing the prospect of Syracuse overpowering Athen's Ionian allies in Sicily.

 

[Arheo]

But it's not just linguistic divisions. Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans, and Ionians are well established and well-known authentic terms for Classical Greek sub-identities. Rejecting and replacing them with invented terms serves no other purpose but breaking immersion for player well-versed in classical history.

I will also point out that you haven't seen the culture map-mode yet .

 

[cools0812]

I will also point out that you haven't seen the culture map-mode yet .

Well, we've already seen the Spartans being "Pelopennesian" and Syracusans being "Syracusan" instead of Doric/Dorian so far. Not a reassuring peek to the culture map if you ask me.

 

[Thure]

Well, we've already seen the Spartans being "Pelopennesian" and Syracusans being "Syracusan" instead of Doric/Dorian so far. Not a reassuring peek to the culture map if you ask me.

Just imagine Peloponnesian as Doric. And Syracusan makes sense to as mixture culture between Dorians and the natives from Sicily.

Also Peloponnesian and Syracusan could easily be subcultures of a Dorian culture group.

 

[cools0812]

Also Peloponnesian and Syracusan could easily be subcultures of a Dorian culture group.

Then we wont have a common Hellenic culture group which sounds even more absurd. Or you are speculating that something like cultural super-group exists in IR?

 

[Thure]

Then we wont have a common Hellenic culture group which sounds even more absurd. Or you are speculating that something like cultural super-group exists in IR?

they confirmed there will be 30 Hellenic cultures. Would be a VERY large culture group don't you think?

 

[Arheo]

they confirmed there will be 30 Hellenic cultures. Would be a VERY large culture group don't you think?

We haven't confirmed anything. The reason we use the disclaimer 'all of this is subject to change', is because all of this really is subject to change. Perhaps 'likely to change' is more accurate.

That said, there are roughly that many in the Greek group at the moment.

 

[vyshan]

We haven't confirmed anything. The reason we use the disclaimer 'all of this is subject to change', is because all of this really is subject to change. Perhaps 'likely to change' is more accurate.

That said, there are roughly that many in the Greek group at the moment.

Please tell me at least Bactria and Massalia get their own culture?

 

[Negru Voda]

It's interesting to note how pops have culture. Thus, unlike EU or CK, provinces will have mixed cultures.

I hope the game will explore this unique aspect.
(I know Vicky did it first)

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Apparently the very word "ethnicity" derives from the term (ἔθνος:ethnos) that Greeks used to refer to groups like Ionians and Dorians with.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

We haven't confirmed anything. The reason we use the disclaimer 'all of this is subject to change', is because all of this really is subject to change. Perhaps 'likely to change' is more accurate.

That said, there are roughly that many in the Greek group at the moment.

I suppose that there will be multiple levels of grouping, then? That would be a good feature for future games.

 

[icedt729]

I'm in favor of roughly 30 Greek cultures rather than just the seven dialect groups, simply because those dialect groups are widely dispersed across different regions that had their own powerful local identities. Boiotia, Thessaly and Aeolia each deserve their own culture, not an overarching "Aeolic" culture based solely on dialect. Likewise I'm in favor of separate cultures for Sicilian and Peloponnesian Doric Greeks.

 

[Cidellus]

One thing I'm worried about is the fact that there doesn't seem to be any pop assimilation, and I'm not sure if there are melting pots. Kind of hope that there's something to blend Greeks together eventually, so that if you decide to settle Italy as the Syracusans, it doesn't become a complete mixed together mess of Italian Greeks. Maybe some sort of "Italiote" melting pot event for a Greek state who manages to unify Magna Graecia?

Similar things could happen to other regions. If Syracuse decides to colonize Iberia, it could lead to the eventual formation of an "Iberiote" Greek culture rather than just being a ton of little foreign Greek minorities patchworked together throughout the place.

 

[Hairy Fairy]

there doesn't seem to be any pop assimilation

There are ways for assimilation though. Which will be talked about later.

 

[Cidellus]

Sweet. Nevermind!

 

[Caligula Caesar]

While this still isn't a finished culture set-up. it is important to note that our 'cultures' are not the same thing as languages. While they occasionally (and we try not to make this the case) share names with languages, they represent a shared way of living, a combination of art styles, social structures, and practices. Sometimes this will mean applying divisions based on modern interpretation, and will often be grouped according to gameplay concerns.

We often get the question (paraphrased), 'why is X city/country/area not Y culture, they were clearly a highly unique civilization?'. In a real-world simulation (which games are not), that might be the case - but the question shouldn't be 'where are cultures', it should be 'what are cultures'.

Peter

I don't particularly mind Macedonian or Peloponnesian. In fact, the former is a must anyway since the Macedonians and Greeks both saw the other as distinct from each other until at least Alexander's death (probably a fair bit longer). But just to state the obvious... Syracuse is a city. So I hope we don't get Syracusan but rather e.g. Sicilian Greek pops in other Sicilian cities

 

[TomosCaerllion]

I'd love this messy and accurate portrayal. Will add to making the Greeks feel like cultures spread along a frog pond, rather than the typical pseudo-modern 'Greek' of just the Greek peninsula. This would show how Spartans could feel the need to get involved in Syracuse as much as at home, and that the Athenians were closer to the Ionian cities.