Synthetic Rebellions exist to Punish Spiritualist

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Archael90

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But even by your own definition, spiritualism doesn't just believe that literally everything has a soul.

I mean, does a rock have a soul? If not, where is the line between soul and no soul. It's clearly somewhere between rocks and humans, so why is a person who comes to the conclusion that automatons are probably not included in the category of things that has a soul "religious", but a person who comes to the conclusion that they're probably included "spiritual"?

Everybody draws that border somewhere, right?
right, and this is my point.
Spiritualism is wide, and unspecific, it says that spiritual world exists, bt its specific religions that creates more specific definitions.
You can choose spiritualist ethic in stellaris, but its not spiritualism, because its too specific, its a religion based on spiritualism, yet only a religion.
 
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Ryika

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right, and this is my point.
Spiritualism is wide, and unspecific, it says that spiritual world exists, bt its specific religions that creates more specific definitions.
You can choose spiritualist ethic in stellaris, but its not spiritualism, because its too specific, its a religion based on spiritualism, yet only a religion.
Well no, it's Spiritualism that has come to the conclusion that the line should be drawn somewhere between robots and humans. I mean again, if you argue that drawing a line turns spiritualism into religion, then drawing the line somewhere between humans and stones also turns spiritualism into a religion.

If that's the case, then what you're saying is that to have "spiritualism", and not "religion", one would have to leave open the possibility that rocks may have souls, that plants may have souls, that planets may have souls, that everything could potentially have a soul. So... should Stellaris leave open the possibility for that? How would that even work, gameplay-wise, when minerals are one of the major building materials?

I'm open to the possibility that Stellaris would be more interesting if robots were removed from the Spiritualist-Materialist-Axis, but your argument seems like gibberish to me.
 
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Archael90

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Well no, it's Spiritualism that has come to the conclusion that the line should be drawn somewhere between robots and humans. I mean again, if you argue that drawing a line turns spiritualism into religion, then drawing the line somewhere between humans and stones also turns spiritualism into a religion.

If that's the case, then what you're saying is that to have "spiritualism", and not "religion", one would have to leave open the possibility that rocks may have souls, that plants may have souls, that planets may have souls, that everything could potentially have a soul. So... should Stellaris leave open the possibility for that? How would that even work, gameplay-wise, when minerals are one of the major building materials?
YES
So, you understand now?

Edit:
In real life you have religions that belives:
- Only humans have soul
- One great spirit is flowing through all matter in the universe
- All "living" things has soul

In fiction you have:
- Transformers - robots that has "spark" which is basically soul
- Orange catholicysm - only organic, sapient life have soul

And all of them are religions based on spiritualism.
 
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Archael90

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I don't think so, no.
Okay then. One post ago you have paraphrazed me i though you know the topic. So please tell me, where you lost track, and i will try to explain it again.
 

Ryika

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Okay then. One post ago you have paraphrazed me i though you know the topic. So please tell me, where you lost track, and i will try to explain it again.
Well, as I understand it, you're now arguing that for "Spiritualism" to be "Spiritualism", we need to leave open all the possibilities that this could potentially entail.
But that list of possibilities entails literally anything, since if rocks can have souls, then anything and everything could theoretically have a soul, not just that which has a mind, and then there is then no limit to the things that could potentially have "souls".

And if that's the case, then what you're calling "Spiritualism" couldn't possibly be portrayed in Stellaris, since game mechanics necessarily make some presumptions for the player. If rocks are crushed into building materials, then that would very clearly hint at the thought that these specific spiritualists are not actually "Spiritualists" by your standards, but "religious" people who have concluded that rocks do not have souls.

It seems to me that you're just setting up an impossible scenario in which Spiritualism as you define it couldn't possibly be portrayed in Stellaris.
But that can't be it either, since earlier you were talking about how Materialists can portrait Spiritualism better than Spiritualists because they are open to the possibility that synths may have soul.

So I really don't know what your overall position is on the topic, since it seems to change and grow more all-encompassing whenever someone makes an argument against your position, to the point where we're at now, where you appear to be arguing for a purely theoretical, vague form of Spiritualism that couldn't possibly exist in the real world.

You used clay as an analogy earlier, but right now it seems to me like you're trying to take the clay away because clay limits the amount of things you could possibly create. But without "clay" as a reasonably foundation, you can't actually create anything.
 
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xking

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They said they are going to do religions at some point, hopefully with the institutions and the internal politics. Probably with a DLC that will do something for spiritualists, like what synthetic dawn did for materialists.
 

prismaticmarcus

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Okay then. One post ago you have paraphrazed me i though you know the topic. So please tell me, where you lost track, and i will try to explain it again.
oh please don't
 
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Archael90

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@Ryika
Im going to make it simple.
Spiritualism is philosophical view that spirit, or spiritual world exists.
It does not say that rock has a soul nor it is souless, not even that soul is a thing.
It is opposition to materialist point of view that there is nothing spiritual in reality.
One of them is saying that consciousness is only electrical activity of matter, while the other says that consiousness is manifestation of spirit, even if this manifest phisycally as electrical activity.

Anything else is specific religion
Robot asking if it has soul is right now, by the pure fact it is considering something spiritual, a spiritualist to some degree.
Answer "No" may be said because one is materialist and reject abstract thing as soul, or because one is spiritualist with belief that only organic body can be vessel of soul. But spiritualist should be able to say both "yes" and "no" depending on their beliefs.

And yes, ethics should be somehow limitted, yet in stellaris this limitation is too narrow, and feels too artificial because of their predefined hatred towards robots, and synths.

Example is spiritual belief that every conscious organism has divine spark, that can be achived only by NOT being spiritualist in terms of stellaris mechanics.
 
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Louella

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by chance, I was looking at star trek stuff, and came across the stuff from the Motion Picture, with V-Ger, and some of it seems relevant.

Specifically this bit of dialogue:

SPOCK: Perhaps not. ...Captain, ...V'Ger must evolve. Its knowledge has reached the limits of this universe and it must evolve. What it requires of its God, Doctor is the answer to its question, 'Is there nothing more?
McCOY: What more is there than the universe, Spock?
DECKER: Other, dimensions, higher levels of beings.
SPOCK: The existence of which cannot be proved logically, therefore V'Ger is incapable of believing in them.
KIRK: What V'Ger needs in order to evolve is a human quality. Our capacity to leap beyond logic.
 

Cry_Havok

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Yes, the degree to which the devs have conflated religion and spiritualism is unfortunate, because the two concepts are not the same thing.


I both agree and don't. It's still a very specific dualism, and the ethic isn't "Dualism vs Monism". The ethic is "Spiritualist" - the belief in and atribution of things to the spiritual/unexplainable, and "Materialist" - the belief that everything behaves within the laws of the universe and can be measured and quantified.
 

Zagreb 887

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This is where your error is (according to spiritualists, anyway). Spiritualists believe that minds are independent of matter, and that simply rearranging matter is insufficient to create a truly conscious mind. Thus, a positronic brain cannot have a mind associated with it, because it's simply a lump of crude matter, albeit one that can behave in a fairly sophisticated fashion. Spiritualists essentially believe that synths and AIs are philosophical zombies.

With this set of mind (lol) its truly a miracle that spiritualist get beyond stone age. This is what bother me the most with this ethic in Stellaris, Pdx make them look like a bunch of retarded crop circle believers
 
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Archael90

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Other thing ist that if current spiritualism is they believe machines have no souls, then their opposition would be a belief that machine has soul in opposition to organics who has not xD This is opposite thought.
 
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Zagreb 887

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Other thing ist that if current spiritualism is they believe machines have no souls, then their opposition would be a belief that machine has soul in opposition to organics who has not xD This is opposite thought.

Materialist and Synths/Machines would rather believe that there is no such thing as "soul" This would not really conflict with them acknowledge the existence of the Shroud, more the way they percieve and define it.

Idk, maybe they describe it as another scalar field as for electromagnetic field or Higgs field, with its associated boson or whatever "shroudotron" that requiere organic mind to interact with.
 
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prismaticmarcus

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With this set of mind (lol) its truly a miracle that spiritualist get beyond stone age. This is what bother me the most with this ethic in Stellaris, Pdx make them look like a bunch of retarded crop circle believers
why can't they be space hippies? pass the zro, man,,,
 
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