Synthetic Rebellions exist to Punish Spiritualist

[InvisibleBison]

Which is still a weird and hyper-specific idea out of all possible religions

Spiritualism =/= religion.

 

[Archael90]

Spiritualism =/= religion.

And Yet in Stellaris it is religion (one specific, which i call "stellaris spiritualism", but its based on "orange catholicysm").... which is shallow, limitting, unimmersive, and sad

 

[Archael90]

@prismaticmarcus
@InvisibleBison
Which part you disagree with?
- That in stellaris spiritualism is specific religion?
- That its based on orange catholicism?
- That its shallow/limitting/unimmersive?
- That its sad?
Last one is very subjective, but anything besides that is just truth, you cant disagree with facts.

 

[InvisibleBison]

And Yet in Stellaris it is religion (one specific, which i call "stellaris spiritualism", but its based on "orange catholicysm").... which is shallow, limitting, unimmersive, and sad

Shallow - I don't see how. You might be able to argue that spiritualism is not well explained, but I think the ethic descriptions make it clear what it's about.
Limiting - Of course it's limiting. All the ethics are, to some extent. The whole point of ethics is to make different nations play differently from one another. They need to be limiting in order to do that.
Unimmersive - Immersion is highly subjective, so this isn't really something debatable. I'll just say that I don't find spiritualism to affect my immersion one way or the other.
Sad - By which you mean you don't like it, I assume. Nothing wrong with having opinions, but you shouldn't try to pass them off as facts.

 

[Archael90]

Shallow - I don't see how. You might be able to argue that spiritualism is not well explained, but I think the ethic descriptions make it clear what it's about.

If you have spiritualism, which is not a religion, but can be a base for various religions, and you are using it as religion, then its shallow.

Limiting - Of course it's limiting. All the ethics are, to some extent. The whole point of ethics is to make different nations play differently from one another. They need to be limiting in order to do that.

Like above:
If you have a clay that you can form in every shape and form, but you are doing only one kind of cup, while at the same time you ARE able to make not only other cups, but also plates, bricks or even sculpures - YOU are limiting either yourself or clay's possibilities.

Unimmersive - Immersion is highly subjective, so this isn't really something debatable. I'll just say that I don't find spiritualism to affect my immersion one way or the other.

If i play spiritualist, yet i cant play spiritualist as it is, but rather orange catholicism to the degree that materialism allows me to better roleplay spiritualist empire, then it is unimmersive.

Remember that whole discussion is based on that spiritualism in stellaris is very narrow part of spiritualism as a whole. We are nod discussing about if spiritualism that is stated in discription is shown in mechanics and flavour texts well. Im not arguing that stellaris spiritualism discurage you from having robots, im arguing that spiritualism as it is have nothing to robots, and only stellaris mechanics are forcing you to this.

Sad - By which you mean you don't like it, I assume. Nothing wrong with having opinions, but you shouldn't try to pass them off as facts.

that was my personal opinion, you can find this state as hilarous and i have nothing to that.

 

[InvisibleBison]

If you have spiritualism, which is not a religion, but can be a base for various religions, and you are using it as religion, then its shallow.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. What's your definition of "shallow"?

Like above:
If you have a clay that you can form in every shape and form, but you are doing only one kind of cup, while at the same time you ARE able to make not only other cups, but also plates, bricks or even sculpures - YOU are limiting either yourself or clay's possibilities.

Yes, I agree with you. But again, ethics are supposed to be limits. To extend your analogy, the spiritualist ethic is cups. If you want plates or bricks, you should choose a different ethic.

If i play spiritualist, yet i cant play spiritualist as it is, but rather orange catholicism to the degree that materialism allows me to better roleplay spiritualist empire, then it is unimmersive.

It is not possible for being a materialist to make it easier to roleplay a spiritualist nation. By virtue of being a materialist, it is impossible to do the sorts of things that a spiritualist nation would do, namely outlaw AI and possibly robots. I realize you have a different definition of spiritualist that is not incompatible with being AI-friendly, but when discussing Stellaris you have to use the game's definitions.

Remember that whole discussion is based on that spiritualism in stellaris is very narrow part of spiritualism as a whole. We are nod discussing about if spiritualism that is stated in discription is shown in mechanics and flavour texts well. Im not arguing that stellaris spiritualism discurage you from having robots, im arguing that spiritualism as it is have nothing to robots, and only stellaris mechanics are forcing you to this.

Again, you err by using your personal definition of spiritualism instead of the game's definition.

 

[Oculument]

.... Main point if you dont build synths or use the sentient combat computers you cant randomly have an uprising.

...

As a fanatic purifier empire I never research sapient combat computers or synths until after the AI rebellion. It happens anyway even without those techs because inevitably some other empire with synths loses a planet with synths on it to me. It is impossible in species rights to voluntarily purge the captured synths, even though if I gave them rights they would be purged automatically. Fanatic purifier empires have no way to avoid the AI rebellion unless the random hot-fix event comes along.

 

[InvisibleBison]

As a fanatic purifier empire I never research sapient combat computers or synths until after the AI rebellion. It happens anyway even without those techs because inevitably some other empire with synths loses a planet with synths on it to me. It is impossible in species rights to voluntarily purge the captured synths, even though if I gave them rights they would be purged automatically. Fanatic purifier empires have no way to avoid the AI rebellion unless the random hot-fix event comes along.

Simply having robotic pops in your nation is insufficient to trigger the AI Uprising. You have to have researched one of the two techs to get the triggering events.

 

[Oculument]

Simply having robotic pops in your nation is insufficient to trigger the AI Uprising. You have to have researched one of the two techs to get the triggering events.

If you have a synth in your empire you get the triggering events, even without the techs.

 

[Archael90]

@InvisibleBison
You are missing the whole point here.
And now i know you havnt read posts you are disagreeing with...
but again.
Noone argue here about ethic that stellaris is presenting. Noone is saying that is not what it is. Noone is saying that one part of ethic description is against of something in the game or sugest that there should be something more in the game (yet i would argue with that...).
The main point here is that
Spiritualism is

/ˈspɪrɪtʃʊəlɪz(ə)m,ˈspɪrɪtjʊəlɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: spiritualism

1. a system of belief or religious practice based on supposed communication with the spirits of the dead, especially through mediums.

2. Philosophy
the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter, or that spirit is the only reality.

But in Stellaris, spiritualism is not a philosophical point of vew about spirits, but is a religion with doctrine that psionic ascendancy is require and machines are souless.

The point is that spiritualism =/= religion
yet in game spiritualism = religion.
We just would like to be able to form other religions rather than being sticked to specific one.

And yes, i can play spiritualists with materialism ethic much better. I can roleplay empire that believes every sapient being has a divine spark, and enlighened is achived with freeing that spark from mortal world... hec the only ethic who is against this belief (clearly spiritual belief, based on spiritualism definition) is spiritualism that hates synthethics from day 1.

 

[InvisibleBison]

Spiritualism is


But in Stellaris, spiritualism is not a philosophical point of vew about spirits, but is a religion with doctrine that psionic ascendancy is require and machines are souless.

You seem to be conflating the two dictionary definitions you cited. They're not the same thing at all; the philosophical belief (which is the one that Stellaris uses) has nothing to do with spirits.

The point is that spiritualism =/= religion
yet in game spiritualism = religion.

Yes, it is annoying how all spiritualists have a state religion and no non-spiritualists can. Temples and god-kings and such should be part of either a religion-themed civic or a full-fledged religion mechanic.

And yes, i can play spiritualists with materialism ethic much better. I can roleplay empire that believes every sapient being has a divine spark, and enlighened is achived with freeing that spark from mortal world... hec the only ethic who is against this belief (clearly spiritual belief, based on spiritualism definition) is spiritualism that hates synthethics from day 1.

You keep asserting this, but I don't think it's philosophically justifiable. Spiritualism is a form of substance dualism, which holds that spirits/minds/souls/divine sparks/whatever you want to call it is fundamentally different from physical matter. Thus, a bunch of minerals doesn't have a soul, because it's just matter. If you then rearrange the minerals into a synth, the synth still doesn't have a soul because it's still just matter. It doesn't matter that it appears to be conscious or sapient. Your position is that the synth will somehow gain a soul when it turns on, but this is incompatible with spiritualism, because you've affected a soul by manipulating matter, and spiritualism says that's impossible.

 

[Archael90]

You keep asserting this, but I don't think it's philosophically justifiable. Spiritualism is a form of substance dualism, which holds that spirits/minds/souls/divine sparks/whatever you want to call it is fundamentally different from physical matter. Thus, a bunch of minerals doesn't have a soul, because it's just matter. If you then rearrange the minerals into a synth, the synth still doesn't have a soul because it's still just matter. It doesn't matter that it appears to be conscious or sapient. Your position is that the synth will somehow gain a soul when it turns on, but this is incompatible with spiritualism, because you've affected a soul by manipulating matter, and spiritualism says that's impossible.

The same thing apply to biological brain and body. Its made with carbon, a mineral, if you rearange this minerals into organic body, does this body suddenly have a soul? It DOES NOT matter what this brain is made of. Mind is mind, despite of it being into biological, positronic or pure energy vessel.

You seem to be conflating the two dictionary definitions you cited. They're not the same thing at all; the philosophical belief (which is the one that Stellaris uses) has nothing to do with spirits.

I have cited you philosophical description about spiritualism, and yes, it is about spirit.

 

[InvisibleBison]

The same thing apply to biological brain and body. Its made with carbon, a mineral, if you rearange this minerals into organic body, does this body suddenly have a soul? It DOES NOT matter what this brain is made of. Mind is mind, despite of it being into biological, positronic or pure energy vessel.

You are stuck in materialist thought patterns. Minds are minds, yes, but brains have nothing to do with minds. Humans have minds and brains, but there's no correlation between those facts. Minds are a spiritual phenomenon and brains are a physical phenomenon and mental and physical things can't interact with each other.

 

[Cry_Havok]

Spiritualism =/= religion.

All religious civics and governments are tied to being Spiritualist. This point would be fine, if exalted priesthood and megachurch et al were not spiritualist only.

 

[InvisibleBison]

All religious civics and governments are tied to being Spiritualist. This point would be fine, if exalted priesthood and megachurch et al were not spiritualist only.

Yes, the degree to which the devs have conflated religion and spiritualism is unfortunate, because the two concepts are not the same thing.

 

[DeanTheDull]

All religious civics and governments are tied to being Spiritualist. This point would be fine, if exalted priesthood and megachurch et al were not spiritualist only.

A being a subset of B does not mean that B is a subset of A. All dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs, and all that.

Religions being spiritualists does not means spiritualists are innately religious.

 

[Archael90]

You are stuck in materialist thought patterns. Minds are minds, yes, but brains have nothing to do with minds. Humans have minds and brains, but there's no correlation between those facts. Minds are a spiritual phenomenon and brains are a physical phenomenon and mental and physical things can't interact with each other.

Exactly!
This is why it does not matter what matter is, mind exists where it exists, so it can exist in synthetic the same way it exist iin biological body. Mind do not care what matter it controlls. As You have said - there is no correlation.

 

[Ryika]

Exactly!
This is why it does not matter what matter is, mind exists where it exists, so it can exist in synthetic the same way it exist iin biological body.

Even if it can, that doesn't necessarily mean that it does.

 

[Archael90]

Even if it can, that doesn't necessarily mean that it does.

And this is where religion comes in.
Stellaris Spiritualism is a religion that says bio body has soul, and synth body has not.
Where Spiritualism on its own says that soul exists and do not care about matter .

 

[Ryika]

And this is where religion comes in.
Stellaris Spiritualism is a religion that says bio body has soul, and synth body has not.
Where Spiritualism on its own says that soul exists and do not care about matter .

But even by your own definition, spiritualism doesn't just believe that literally everything has a soul.

I mean, does a rock have a soul? If not, where is the line between soul and no soul. It's clearly somewhere between rocks and humans, so why is a person who comes to the conclusion that automatons are probably not included in the category of things that has a soul "religious", but a person who comes to the conclusion that they're probably included "spiritual"?

Everybody draws that border somewhere, right?