Synthetic Plants Needs Changing

[mursolini]

it think the ratio st the moment is 5:2 oil:rubber. In my opinion this is to high and will make germany self suppyling pretty fast if it has some civ factories dedicated to that task. Maybe the reatio should be brought down to 3:2. Also lessenes the problem that america is getting even more oil that it doesn´t need.

I`m curious how did you arrive to the conclusion.

In game, Romania produces 70 oil, thus even at current rate, historical Germany would have to built 15 synthetic factories to at least get to it`s historical production level, which is a huge investment, looking at WWW Japanese plays.

 

[Sun_Killer]

i don´t think that 15 plants is all that much if you have the tech on three and the year is 1942.

 

[mursolini]

i don´t think that 15 plants is all that much if you have the tech on three and the year is 1942.

Don`t think, do the math. So far, we know how many civilian factories Germany starts with, we know how many it may obtain due to WWW Hungarian play.
We also know the cost of synthetic factory.

Go ahead, show us how much Germany must invest to get to it`s historical level of production. I`m really tired of people suggesting arbitrary balance changes based on their "feelings".

 

[Kozer]

Havn't the devs said that setting up the synth plants takes awhile and is an investment...? Not only that but shouldn't gameplay take over any kind of actual historical part?

 

[JerkyJerry]

shouldn't gameplay take over any kind of actual historical part?

Wait, what? HOI4 is a game?
You, you are kidding me right?
A game you say?
Huh. Sometimes it is difficult to tell

 

[Otto of england]

it think the ratio st the moment is 5:2 oil:rubber. In my opinion this is to high and will make germany self suppyling pretty fast if it has some civ factories dedicated to that task. Maybe the reatio should be brought down to 3:2. Also lessenes the problem that america is getting even more oil that it doesn´t need.

Historical reasons aside a synthetic factory has to be comparable to equivalent amount of civilian factories trading for goods, otherwise synthetics are bad investment. A synthetic factory costs a little over 2 civilan factories, which can net you +4/+4 oil/rubber, so a synthetic factory has to be a comparable volume overall, in this case +5/+2. Additionally synthetics are a wasted slot when you gain a surplus, where as civilian factories are not wasted, so with that in mind you can argue a synthetic factory should be slightly better then an equivalent amount of civilian factories after you factor in convoy vulnerability.

 

[mursolini]

Historical reasons aside a synthetic factory has to be comparable to equivalent amount of civilian factories trading for goods, otherwise synthetics are bad investment. A synthetic factory costs a little over 2 civilan factories, which can net you +4/+4 oil/rubber, so a synthetic factory has to be a comparable volume overall, in this case +5/+2. Additionally synthetics are a wasted slot when you gain a surplus, where as civilian factories are not wasted, so with that in mind you can argue a synthetic factory should be slightly better then an equivalent amount of civilian factories after you factor in convoy vulnerability.

Hardly. Civilian factories are supposed to be more efficient, because lack of resources is supposed to be #1 reason for Axis to start war.

It doesn`t have to be comparable to anything, since synthetics are supposed to provide you resources you require but can`t buy due to war, not a profitable commercial venture (for oil anyway).

 

[Nicolas I]

There was no oil production in Libya until the 1950s. But there was some exploratory work done just before the war looking for oil, that had to be cut short when the area became a battleground. So any NF for is an ahistoric choice, but very plausible...

The first oil in Lybia was discovered in 1938 by Ardito Desio, but exploration was halted by the outbreak of WW2. Only a few wells were drilled by AGIP at that time. So I agree that it is ahistoric but plausible.

The fact that those 2 focuses are somewhere down the tree is a good balancing as you will need to put some effort before getting oil from Lybia, and then you will have to keep Lybia...

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

I dont see a problem here. Synthetic oil definatly is NOT a alternative for natural oil reserves or imported oil, it is just a addition or if things go south a desperate reserve. It isnt feasable, if even possible to build that many synthetic plants, since they are extremely expensive and you can only build limited amount in each state, especially early on you are limited to 1 per state. I cant see how germany or japan could ever produce enough synthetic oil and rubber in the game to be completly independent from outside sources. Overall, that was (and is in the game) the reason why germany and japan seeked expansion in the first place, to become independent from other nations and to be self sufficient.

So none of this is remotely true.
Using coal feed stock is no more difficult than building a cracking plant and distilling out your desired fuels. However, and this is the big difference, synthetic fuel production is very energy intensive and only produces narrow cut fuel.
You're confusing the why we don't do something in peace time to why something cannot be done.
Germany had the energy reserves in mass abundance, but building up the refining capacity or the equally industrially demanding synthetic production facilities was out side it's industrial capacity in the time frame allotted.
Germany's fuel problems wouldn't have been suddenly eliminated if you gave them an infinite crude oil pipe in Berlin. Infrastructure takes time, lots of time to build out.

As to synthetic rubber, it's generally cheaper than natural rubber, and has been that way since approximately 1925. That's why most of the rubber produced in the world is synthetic.

So no, Germany nor Japan should be fuel/oil independent in the games time frame from synthetic fuel plants since they shouldn't have enough time and industry to build that capacity. Capturing territory also captures the infrastructure there to utilise the resources.

Synthetic rubber should be non trivial, but as the USA demonstrated very reasonable for any modern economy (major) in a couple of years. And remember, given their industrial output their rubber demand was super high yet was all locally satisfied by about 4 plants.

 

[LordOfWar16]

So none of this is remotely true.

Germany had the energy reserves in mass abundance, but building up the refining capacity or the equally industrially demanding synthetic production facilities was out side it's industrial capacity in the time frame allotted.

So no, Germany nor Japan should be fuel/oil independent in the games time frame from synthetic fuel plants since they shouldn't have enough time and industry to build that capacity. Capturing territory also captures the infrastructure there to utilise the resources.

This is exactly what i said.

Sure, the USA might be able to pull it off to produce alot of synthetic rubber (they already got more than enough oil anyway), but in the game they basicly have unlimited amount of civilian factories to work with in comparision to most other nations. From trade alone they will recieve massive amount of free civilian factories.

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

This is exactly what i said.

My appologies, I read your first sentence as independent to the game, since that what it seems to imply. That's what I was disagreeing with, since synthetic fuel is 100% definitely an alternative to crude oil. Today it's even commercially viable when oil is around 120/barrel.

 

[LordOfWar16]

My appologies, I read your first sentence as independent to the game, since that what it seems to imply. That's what I was disagreeing with, since synthetic fuel is 100% definitely an alternative to crude oil. Today it's even commercially viable when oil is around 120/barrel.

i guess the problem is that i was talking about ingame and you were reffering to reallife. Sorry for the confusion from me aswell.

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

No problem.
Game balance doesn't enter into my mind yet, since we haven't gotten to play it yet. I have faith that no matter what paradox does, the millions of Beta+ testers in its the customer will find very novel ways of breaking the game all to hell no matter what system they have in place.

 

[Otto of england]

Hardly. Civilian factories are supposed to be more efficient, because lack of resources is supposed to be #1 reason for Axis to start war.

It doesn`t have to be comparable to anything, since synthetics are supposed to provide you resources you require but can`t buy due to war, not a profitable commercial venture (for oil anyway).

If synthetics are not comparable to a equivalent amount of civilian factories nobody will build them. Paradox had already said this much when synthetics produced +3/+2 oil/rubber.

 

[Denkt]

Only military and civilian factories increase your need for civilian goods. The trade laws applies to synthetic plant oil and rubber.

Currently it seems like one civilian factory can be traded for 8 resources but synthetic plant have the advantage of not being dependent on a foregine country and convoys.

 

[mursolini]

If synthetics are not comparable to a equivalent amount of civilian factories nobody will build them. Paradox had already said this much when synthetics produced +3/+2 oil/rubber.

Synthetics don't have to be comparable. PI said Synthetics were underpowered, which is not the same.

Synthetics are supposed to provide you goods that you can't buy due to being at war. Even IF you just pre-build lots of equipment, it is still subject to being limited by factory cwpacity and getting obsolete. Even IF you are supposed to conquer your oil, it may stll not be enough to be able to defeat next enemy.

Synthetics expand supply of resoureses aviavable. Civilian factries only allow you to purchase more, assuming you both can do it, and the resourses are actually avaivable for purchase.

 

[Overestimate]

I would like to see synthetic oil and rubber production separated or minum increased to 2:2 ratio of production even if this would increase the overall plant cost by 25%. Either way ic-to-resource point cost should stay the same.

It's not optimal that currently countries cannot optimize synthetic production towards missing resources but have to buy everything in bundles.

 

[Otto of england]

Synthetics don't have to be comparable. PI said Synthetics were underpowered, which is not the same.

Synthetics are supposed to provide you goods that you can't buy due to being at war. Even IF you just pre-build lots of equipment, it is still subject to being limited by factory cwpacity and getting obsolete. Even IF you are supposed to conquer your oil, it may stll not be enough to be able to defeat next enemy.

Synthetics expand supply of resoureses aviavable. Civilian factries only allow you to purchase more, assuming you both can do it, and the resourses are actually avaivable for purchase.

Yes they were underpowered because they were not comparable, it was always better to build civilian IC trade then it was to build synthetics.

Civilian IC is more flexible then Synthetics and that's a huge advantage (also they give +8 resources on a trade) so reducing Synthetics production would make them really bad to build. That was what my original response was about, it was suggested that the resources they provide should be reduced and that would make Synthetics something you would only ever build if you were truly desperate.

 

[scroggin]

It wouldn't be hard to mod the shared buildings and have a split between synthetic rubber and synthetic oil refineries. But the Construction UI would need to be redesigned to enable the new building to be built by the player.

Plus these take slots in the shared buildings. Any country which required both oil and rubber would be doubly penalised by having to use two slots, having to do two lots of research, and double the cost of construction.

I think the solution to that problem is not to split synthetic plants into synthetic rubber and synthetic fuel but rather to leave the current combined synthetic-rubber/oil plants as they are. And have an alternative plant which converts oil to synthetic rubber. This way you will either research the combined plant or the rubber only plant, no need to do both. And you wouldnt have to produce unneeded synthetic oil in order to get needed synthetic rubber.

 

[Nicolas I]

I think the solution to that problem is not to split synthetic plants into synthetic rubber and synthetic fuel but rather to leave the current combined synthetic-rubber/oil plants as they are. And have an alternative plant which converts oil to synthetic rubber. This way you will either research the combined plant or the rubber only plant, no need to do both. And you wouldnt have to produce unneeded synthetic oil in order to get needed synthetic rubber.

But you still may have to produce unneeded synthetic rubber in order to get needed synthetic oil !