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Commissar Yossarian

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So having rolled this around a bunch for a while now, I'm still very bothered by the way Paradox has chosen to model synthetics in the game. I do appreciate that it's not going to change before release, but assuming a mod to bring fuel into the game, then the below should be viable.

Synthetic fuel is derived from syngas and primarily relies on large quantities of coal or natural gas, while Synthetic rubber generally utilizes the byproducts of oil refining to produce it's butadiene, though can also be produced from ethanol etc.

Synthetic fuel has never been a particularly economic way of producing fuel stocks (Diesel, Jet A etc) while since 1925 synthetic rubber has been both comercially viable and widely adopted. Though both were readily understood processes by 1936 all over the world.

In terms of the war context with the fall of SE Asia and it's near global rubber supply the USA needed to make up it's lack of access and so massivly ramped up it's synthetic rubber industry in 1940 and very quickly started out producing the amount of natural rubber that was harvested pre-war.

Because of this I think that synthetic plants really should be split into synthetic rubber and synthetic fuel.
Each plant should be able to be built from 1936 and have their own technology trees. Then improvements in each industry would have appropriate efficiency impacts (increasing per plant production output) and maybe some nice bonuses if you want to get very detailed (improved synthetic capacity and tech gives broader access to things like nylon, acrylic etc which are all vital for things like parachutes [replacing silk], glass windscreens [lighter aircraft]).

Synthetic plants should consume a certain amount of the appropriate resource, coal for fuel, oil for rubber, and take a efficiency penalty [-50%*(1-ProvidedResource/NeededResource)] if it's not available.

These should be added along with oil refineries to the available factories to build in a state that then show up in your build queue to produce fuel (synthetic or refined) and rubber that either go into your national stock pile (fuel) or is added to your national resource pool (rubber).

This would improve the game play I think, while doing a better job of representing the history and problems facing the countries at the time better.

It would also make the choice for Germany much more interesting regarding the potential allied bombing campaign. Right now if you take enough territory and therefore factories there's no reason to need to protect your home territory as the conquered factories are equally useful as your pre-war heartland industry. Where as if you loose all your rubber production because Britain kills those 3 factories in Germany, the 10 extra civilian and military factories in Yugoslavia aren't going to make up for the 3 destroyed ones in Germany.
 
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Gort11

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The synthetic plants actually strike me as somewhat unnecessary to include in the game. When you build a tank without oil resources, or a plane without rubber resources, you're finding less-good alternatives to those resources, and the production efficiency suffers as a result.

That already seems to model the difficulties of synthesising resources sufficiently well, to me. Perhaps a more elegant way of modelling synthetics plants and technologies would be to have them reduce the production inefficiency caused by lack of resources.
 
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Commissar Yossarian

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As the game is currently written that's exactly what they are doing, but in a way so there is no scaling issues where 1 synthetic refinery cannot satisfy 100 factories, and conversly, if you have a surplus then you'll see no efficiency penalty.

The problem I have with this, is that the various countries understood their vulnerability to rubber shortages and were able to overcome this problem very successfully by building sufficient synthetic rubber capacity. No one in the war could remove their dependency on extracted oil for fuel by building a bunch of synthetic fuel plants. Why would the USA spend gobs of civilian IC on building a bunch of Synthetic plants to get a little rubber and way more oil. They don't need oil, and more to the point, fuel (oil here) doesn't come out of a synthetic rubber plant.

It's like having only one type of factory that produces 20 Military IC and 5 Civilian IC. It makes no sense.
 
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panzerzombie

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You are right, but it should - hopefully - be easy to mod. A split of SynRefineries in oil or rubber producing would make sense ( especially the rubber examples: US, they had loads of oil but had to produce artificial rubber , same with germany when/if they have romania they need less oil but same amount of rubber ).
 

Had a dad

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You are right, but it should - hopefully - be easy to mod. A split of SynRefineries in oil or rubber producing would make sense ( especially the rubber examples: US, they had loads of oil but had to produce artificial rubber , same with germany when/if they have romania they need less oil but same amount of rubber ).
fun fact, GER out produced ROM with natural production and synth oil, 35 metric tons to 25 in WW2. GER's synthetic industry almost matched ROMs total output 23.2 to 25
 
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Commissar Yossarian

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Given their coal reserves and industrial capacity that's not surprising, but good to know. Nice to have all your needs satisfied by narrow cut fuels that lend themselves well to synthetic production. Down side - poor Kriegsmarine wouldn't get any bunker fuel out of the synthetic plants. Up side - poor Kriegsmarine didn't have enough of a surface fleet to complain about it :p
 
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I think it is good as it is. It is less effective then trading 7 resources vs 10 per civilian factory but it dont carry the weakness of being dependent on foregine sources and convoys. It is a very limited building but it is useful for european nations, USA can just trade for the rubber it need without any problems.
 

Orlunu

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I think it is good as it is. It is less effective then trading 7 resources vs 10 per civilian factory but it dont carry the weakness of being dependent on foregine sources and convoys. It is a very limited building but it is useful for european nations, USA can just trade for the rubber it need without any problems.

The main problem is having synthetic oil and synthetic rubber in a fixed ratio.
 
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potski

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You are right, but it should - hopefully - be easy to mod. A split of SynRefineries in oil or rubber producing would make sense ( especially the rubber examples: US, they had loads of oil but had to produce artificial rubber , same with germany when/if they have romania they need less oil but same amount of rubber ).
It wouldn't be hard to mod the shared buildings and have a split between synthetic rubber and synthetic oil refineries. But the Construction UI would need to be redesigned to enable the new building to be built by the player.

Plus these take slots in the shared buildings. Any country which required both oil and rubber would be doubly penalised by having to use two slots, having to do two lots of research, and double the cost of construction.
 
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It wouldn't be hard to mod the shared buildings and have a split between synthetic rubber and synthetic oil refineries. But the Construction UI would need to be redesigned to enable the new building to be built by the player.

Plus these take slots in the shared buildings. Any country which required both oil and rubber would be doubly penalised by having to use two slots, having to do two lots of research, and double the cost of construction.

This - I'm sure it's possible, but will require a little balancing. It's something I'd be interested in, as long as the AI could cope with it (which I'd expect it to be able to).
 

LordOfWar16

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I dont see a problem here. Synthetic oil definatly is NOT a alternative ingame for natural oil reserves or imported oil, it is just a addition or if things go south a desperate reserve. It isnt feasable, if even possible to build that many synthetic plants, since they are extremely expensive and you can only build limited amount in each state, especially early on you are limited to 1 per state. I cant see how germany or japan could ever produce enough synthetic oil and rubber in the game to be completly independent from outside sources. Overall, that was (and is in the game) the reason why germany and japan seeked expansion in the first place, to become independent from other nations and to be self sufficient.
 
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This was discussed some time ago in another thread, but I would like to see some Oil in Western Poland (there was some even if most was in the Eastern soviet occupied Poland) and in Lybia. Though these were far from major sources, every little bit help. Are there other small sources that were overlooked in HOI3 ?

IIRC that was mentioned somewhere that there would be an option/decision for the Italian player to try to develop Lybian Oil ?

Was Johan joking when he wrote this ?
I also have done oil excavation in Libya and have some refineries down there :)
 
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LordOfWar16

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This was discussed some time ago in another thread, but I would like to see some Oil in Western Poland (there was some even if most was in the Eastern soviet occupied Poland) and in Lybia. Though these were far from major sources, every little bit help. Are there other small sources that were overlooked in HOI3 ?

IIRC there was mentioned somewhere that there would be an option/decision for the Italian player to try to develop Lybian Oil ?

Was Johan joking when he wrote this ?
yes, there is a national focus for oil in lybia. You can also research technologies which will increase the resource output of your states.

5abaa1dc1d9a3cab652559ba1ec11c4c.jpg
 
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Thanks for the picture LordofWar16 !

These kind of choices in the focus trees will greatly enhance the replayability and experimentation of plausible alternative history.
 

Sun_Killer

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it think the ratio st the moment is 5:2 oil:rubber. In my opinion this is to high and will make germany self suppyling pretty fast if it has some civ factories dedicated to that task. Maybe the reatio should be brought down to 3:2. Also lessenes the problem that america is getting even more oil that it doesn´t need.
 
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potski

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They are not civ factories, they are a separate building type. They need to be researched and they are expensive. Plus each one you construct takes a building slot reducing the number of other factories you can construct.

But as Had a Dad pointed out, Germany did manage to produce alot of synthetic oil.
 
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potski

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Wonder if Japan gets to do the same with manchuria
There was no oil production in Libya until the 1950s. But there was some exploratory work done just before the war looking for oil, that had to be cut short when the area became a battleground. So any NF for is an ahistoric choice, but very plausible.

Can you provide a source that there was oil in Manchuria that could be extracted during the period please. In English.
 
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