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killcreak

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There was a decent discussion about PTSD in another thread I wanna say maybe 2 weeks ago? I suspect the consensus will come out the same here - going brave to craven happened, it's been well documented for thousands of years, and every person DOES have a breaking point.
PTSD in the past? Really? Like, did you invent a time machine and diagnose a few? What is seen by someone as "traumatic" is entirely dependent on culture, education and context and all these were very different in the past. Why should I be bothered about seeing someone dying for example, IF I believe there's afterlife with 72 virgins there waiting for him?
 
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Lowcast

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The problem with the craven trait being given is that it's almost always under circumstances that run counter to that. Why should I be punished by having a craven ruler when I'm taking the risk of having them captured, maimed or killed by leading battles and fighting in personal combat? Players already suffer a risk by doing these things, why penalize them further for doing so?

Roleplaying the situation is fine and all but at present CK2 doesn't really facilitate playing a 'bad' character. I'd love to roleplay a greedy, slothful coward of a ruler but at present the game won't reward you for this in any way and will in fact just handicap you with opinion maluses and poor stats.
 
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King Dave

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PTSD in the past? Really? Like, did you invent a time machine and diagnose a few? What is seen by someone as "traumatic" is entirely dependent on culture, education and context and all these were very different in the past. Why should I be bothered about seeing someone dying for example, IF I believe there's afterlife with 72 virgins there waiting for him?

Good luck with this argument. I tried it in the thread from 2 week ago and they wouldn't have it. Apparently Vikings warriors had the exact same thoughts as modern day soldiers whilst they were playing on their Xboxs.
 
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King Dave

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The problem with the craven trait being given is that it's almost always under circumstances that run counter to that. Why should I be punished by having a craven ruler when I'm taking the risk of having them captured, maimed or killed by leading battles and fighting in personal combat? Players already suffer a risk by doing these things, why penalize them further for doing so?

Roleplaying the situation is fine and all but at present CK2 doesn't really facilitate playing a 'bad' character. I'd love to roleplay a greedy, slothful coward of a ruler but at present the game won't reward you for this in any way and will in fact just handicap you with opinion maluses and poor stats.

Agree completly. If anything not using your leader in battle should lead to getting the craven trait.
 

Ygdrasel

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The problem with the craven trait being given is that it's almost always under circumstances that run counter to that. Why should I be punished by having a craven ruler when I'm taking the risk of having them captured, maimed or killed by leading battles and fighting in personal combat? Players already suffer a risk by doing these things, why penalize them further for doing so?

Roleplaying the situation is fine and all but at present CK2 doesn't really facilitate playing a 'bad' character. I'd love to roleplay a greedy, slothful coward of a ruler but at present the game won't reward you for this in any way and will in fact just handicap you with opinion maluses and poor stats.

You say you'd "love to roleplay a greedy, slothful coward of a ruler" but then you decry the all-too-likely scenario that such a ruler would be a maladjusted prat that nobody likes. So obviously you wouldn't actually love to be that guy.

I'm currently playing a maimed cripple with a concubine mother and a different religion than everyone else on the entire continent (excluding the wife who immigrated). Now, my stats are alright but I'm pretty sure even Mister Rogers would try to put a knife in my crippled infidel belly. And I like it fine because it's presenting a challenge.

Now, you say the game doesn't facilitate playing a bad guy? Well...Yeah, duh. To facilitate is to make something easier. A greedy slothful coward wouldn't have it easy - because he's greedy and slothful and a coward.

The game absolutely shouldn't be facilitating playing bad guys. But I'd have to agree it should consider traits and context more heavily. Role-play handwaves aside, a top-tier military commander suddenly turning coward is nonsense. Maybe if the game implemented some unseen win/loss counter, and a given number of battle losses turned the guy coward. Or if the event fires where your man goes one-on-one with some enemy soldier and loses but survives, I could see some falter in the bravery there. Just a random shift though...No.

And someone previously mentioned how 'Craven' affects everything from war to feast participation which is ridiculous. "Shy" might affect joining dancers or whatever at a feast, but a craven trait gained in battle? Not likely. I'd either shift around what traits affect what things a bit or add in a new specific trait. 'Fear of Battle', perhaps. Or 'Aware of Mortality'. Sudden stark comprehension of how easily one can die might turn the guy around real quick.
 
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jaredstanko

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You say you'd "love to roleplay a greedy, slothful coward of a ruler" but then you decry the all-too-likely scenario that such a ruler would be a maladjusted prat that nobody likes. So obviously you wouldn't actually love to be that guy.

I'm currently playing a maimed cripple with a concubine mother and a different religion than everyone else on the entire continent (excluding the wife who immigrated). Now, my stats are alright but I'm pretty sure even Mister Rogers would try to put a knife in my crippled infidel belly. And I like it fine because it's presenting a challenge.

Now, you say the game doesn't facilitate playing a bad guy? Well...Yeah, duh. To facilitate is to make something easier. A greedy slothful coward wouldn't have it easy - because he's greedy and slothful and a coward.

The game absolutely shouldn't be facilitating playing bad guys. But I'd have to agree it should consider traits and context more heavily. Role-play handwaves aside, a top-tier military commander suddenly turning coward is nonsense. Maybe if the game implemented some unseen win/loss counter, and a given number of battle losses turned the guy coward. Or if the event fires where your man goes one-on-one with some enemy soldier and loses but survives, I could see some falter in the bravery there. Just a random shift though...No.

And someone previously mentioned how 'Craven' affects everything from war to feast participation which is ridiculous. "Shy" might affect joining dancers or whatever at a feast, but a craven trait gained in battle? Not likely. I'd either shift around what traits affect what things a bit or add in a new specific trait. 'Fear of Battle', perhaps. Or 'Aware of Mortality'. Sudden stark comprehension of how easily one can die might turn the guy around real quick.

how about this for an idea. make the "swords are pointy" event about 2 times as rare as it is now, change it from giving the "craven" trait to giving a triggered modifier for a year or so, with a much steeper penalty(5 martial, 5 diplo?) and give it an event chain that is dynamic to the traits you have(so its one of those events that gives you extra choices based on your traits and maybe forces you to take choices if you have negative traits) and let it have an end consequence that removes your triggered modifier, replaces it with a new one, adds brave, adds craven, adds depressed, all depending on your choices. also make this event 2 times as likely if you are already craven and since you cant get craven twice give an opinion modifier at the conclusion of the event chain if you otherwise would have gone craven, and make craven lock you into this. TADA. combined with the other battle event that REMOVES craven i think itd work really well
 
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Maeldun

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The event needs to be rewritten to take more things into account. That's all there is to it. This discussion makes me wonder how many people posting here have ever looked at the events to see how they work.
 

yerm

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PTSD in the past? Really? Like, did you invent a time machine and diagnose a few? What is seen by someone as "traumatic" is entirely dependent on culture, education and context and all these were very different in the past. Why should I be bothered about seeing someone dying for example, IF I believe there's afterlife with 72 virgins there waiting for him?
Good luck with this argument. I tried it in the thread from 2 week ago and they wouldn't have it. Apparently Vikings warriors had the exact same thoughts as modern day soldiers whilst they were playing on their Xboxs.

Has the brain itself changed? A Viking may simply not be stressed out by death or the fear of it and thus avoid PTSD because a battlefield is not stressful. Totally reasonable. What is completely backed by numerous ancient accounts is that soldiers did become afflicted with ailments which we now associate with PTSD. What's reasonable is to correlate that everyone has a breaking point, even the bravest people.

As I argued in that thread and will continue to argue here, ancient war was not just battles. The really brutal accounts involve campaigns and sieges, not just some battle that's over in a day. A Viking warrior getting in one little fight and becoming a coward may be silly, but put that same hero in a siege and things change. Or just have them stare down their best friend dying slowly of a minor infection spread. Or maybe they ate some bad food and shit themselves when the battle started and nobody will let them live it down, thus marked as a craven.

I'm not trying to sit here and argue that people in the past weren't different and would have had a different outlook on battle and death. Certainly we know that people treated death much differently before modern medicine. What I'm arguing is that the brain's wiring itself wasn't different, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that prolonged severe trauma wouldn't have had a similar effect, even if an actual battlefield itself wasn't traumatic. Campaigns could be awful. Sieges certainly. The possibility remains no matter how badass, and the brain itself is the same no matter the culture.
 
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Knotz

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A rose by any other name. Whether you call it PTSD or a man 'broken in battle' or a demented psychopath or 'a man who lives for blood and death' its still pretty much the same thing.
 
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dragoon9105

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Craven isn't PTSD and calling it that is offensive to people with Actual PTSD.

And Medieval commanders very rarely ever saw the battle from the front besides a few cavalry charges. Things like 10k Vs a 500 stack of rebel shouldn't fire the Craven event, Your commanders would be nowhere near the frontline of that battle.

This is the nobility were talking about remember, not common footsoldiers or levies drafted to fight against their will. Your king isn't leading from the front like in lord of the Rings, he is half a mile behind the line commanding his archers and cavalry.
 
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Tempestra

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Yeah the swords are sharp and dangerous event is a joke. I had a 50 year old berserker, Varangian, Viking, veteran of countless battles and raids decide that he was frightened of swords. Plain stupid if you ask me, such a bloke would have been more terrified of NOT dying in battle.
To be honest we don't need the touchy feely modern view of PTSD to be imposed on our brutal medieval world. Yes there might have been some mental stuff going on back then that wasn't documented but do we really need to spoil the mystic of the past, by trying to include it here.

Personally I'm much more interested in trying to get a realistic picture of the past than the "mystique". I think one of the strengths of CK2 is its relative realism. I'd rather lean into that than make it a game about broad genre stereotypes.
 

Jackwagon

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I don't think a trait should ever be dictated to you it should always be a 50/50 deal for example an event fires like
You notice swords are sharp and dangerous
Click okay get a follow up event like
Indeed what a great tool so and so gains brave or the horror! Gain craven
 

yerm

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Craven isn't PTSD and calling it that is offensive to people with Actual PTSD.

And Medieval commanders very rarely ever saw the battle from the front besides a few cavalry charges. Things like 10k Vs a 500 stack of rebel shouldn't fire the Craven event, Your commanders would be nowhere near the frontline of that battle.

This is the nobility were talking about remember, not common footsoldiers or levies drafted to fight against their will. Your king isn't leading from the front like in lord of the Rings, he is half a mile behind the line commanding his archers and cavalry.

Nobody is arguing that craven = PTSD. Nobody is even arguing that PTSD always equal craven, either. Craven is just one among many possible symptoms that the game can choose to display this type of quality. In fact, PTSD isn't even the only outcome of battle stress.

Medieval commanders did see battle from the front, just not from the thick of it. Bodyguards and entourage may keep you from being engulfed in death, sure, but you're still right there. Half a mile back is nonsense, and doesn't match my historical accounts of battles. Not that it really matters, since battles then were nothing like the battles of today. The real brutality comes from the long campaigns where you're harassed and raided constantly, or from sieges on either side. A battle is one day of nastiness, while campaigns could turn into months of near-starved forced marches, harassment, night raids, and fear. Since a "battle" in CK2 always lasts longer than a day and involves everyone in the region, I mentally consider it be more of an extended military campaign with numerous engagements, and in this case I don't think some spoiled noble should necessarily always be free from stress or fear.
 
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Ahahahaha this was absolutely hilarious. :D

I didn't know much about Team Fortress 2, but now I think I'll learn more about it.

Man I am still laughing...

It´s my favourite game that I´ve never played ;)

You can spend days watching all the videos the game has. It´s one of the funniest games ever.
 

Scotty the Scot

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Traits really should be completely dependent upon your actions...and there are still tons of cases where someone has two traits that don't make sense...like having ambitious and slothful at the same time

Ambitious but slothful perfectly describes the average Paradox game player.
 
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King Dave

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Personally I'm much more interested in trying to get a realistic picture of the past than the "mystique". I think one of the strengths of CK2 is its relative realism. I'd rather lean into that than make it a game about broad genre stereotypes.

The mystique of the past is probably better documented then the realism.
 

Lowcast

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You say you'd "love to roleplay a greedy, slothful coward of a ruler" but then you decry the all-too-likely scenario that such a ruler would be a maladjusted prat that nobody likes. So obviously you wouldn't actually love to be that guy.

I didn't complain that no one would like the ruler, I complained the game doesn't facilitate it. People don't like you, they conspire and they rebel, that's fine. What isn't fine is when you put down that rebellion several times and punish everyone involved. Regardless of you doing this, the AI will continue to revolt anyway until you bribe them or oust them - it has no sense of self-preservation. People don't have to like you, but there is no meter to gauge fear, the only way to stabilize your realm is to appease your vassals. There are no ways to counter opinion maluses other than to get positive maluses, even if someone would have reason to be afraid to act against you in the first place. How is it unreasonable to complain in a thread about roleplaying that you're forced into taking the same actions every game regardless of your ruler's traits or you'll be crippling your own experience?

I'm currently playing a maimed cripple with a concubine mother and a different religion than everyone else on the entire continent (excluding the wife who immigrated). Now, my stats are alright but I'm pretty sure even Mister Rogers would try to put a knife in my crippled infidel belly. And I like it fine because it's presenting a challenge.

Good for you, I can play difficult characters as well, but it has nothing to do with the point being made. My point is that when my character ends up being an arbitrary deceitful master strategist with berserker and impaler I still have to play the game by appeasing all my vassals as opposed to using repressive methods. Fighting back the rebellions and avoiding assassinations is easy, the problem is the AI will ignore the consequences of their actions and continue throwing bodies at you anyway even though they can't stop you.

Now, you say the game doesn't facilitate playing a bad guy? Well...Yeah, duh. To facilitate is to make something easier. A greedy slothful coward wouldn't have it easy - because he's greedy and slothful and a coward.

You're conflating making it enjoyable with making it easy. I don't think it should be easier - CK2 is already an extremely easy game and I certainly don't play it for the difficulty. I can easily play a tyrant and do whatever I want by abusing mercenaries and imprisoning then replacing all my vassals with new guys that don't have the tyrant malus, my complaint it isn't fun. The game doesn't facilitate that playstyle so doing so and succeeding ends up requiring gamey methods that ultimately make the whole experience really boring. EU4 faciliates using tyrannical methods such as military repression, aggressive expansion, colonial genocide and in the case of the Aztecs ritualistic sacrifice of your vassal's rulers. They don't feel annoying to use nor do they make the game easier, they simply feel like another way to play the game with its own set of pros and cons.

Getting craven in the midst of a battle is annoying, but it's annoying because traits like that are just inherently bad and don't enhance the player's fun or enjoyment in any way, it merely presents an obstacle that requires RNG to get rid of. Since CK2 is built so much around RNG the question should be how to make the random effects and traits fun, not necessarily easier. The lunatic and possessed traits are a good example; they only serve to hinder your gameplay and make it harder, and yet most people love it when they have those traits because of the additional events and opportunities they present.
 
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