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elvain

Africa & MidEast cartographer
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Jan 20, 2004
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Many of you may already noticed this information from various sources and I feel sorry for all the other HIP team members to repeatedly answer the same question why.

First of all, it is only SWMH, other HIP modules do support this bookmark, so if you want to play Charlemagne with HIP, you can, but not on SWMH map.

The reason why we decided not to include 769 is not that hard to guess:
We were facing the same problem already in 867 bookmark, where there were historical sources for only about 1/2 - 2/3 of the map with pretty much no reliable information. As of 769 this got even worse and except the core Middle eastern parts of Islamic civilization and Byzantine empire and some, but definitely not enough information about Western Europe, there are very large areas where we know very little or even literaly nothing (in 867 we at least knew that there were some tribes occupying roughly defined area, but in 769 even this is even more uncertain.

As we believe that the major added value of our mod (except offering more beautiful map than vanilla :D) is making the map more historicaly accurate, but for the above mentioned reasons we can not promise this objective for 769. In fact it would mean that we fill more than half (but in fact it would be 2/3 - 3/4) of the map with fantasy placeholders rulers. We are sorry about this and we know many people will be disappointed about it, but we believe it is better to do something where the added value of our work would be more valuable. After all, filling the map with placeholders is something what any medium skilled modder can do with enough will and patience.

As a compensation for the lack of this bookmark we decided to use all our capacities (which are unfortunately ATM very limitted) to Asian expansion and later to offering a bookmark between 867-1066 - there's already a thread for this. The current favourites seem to be 855 or something between 898-1001.

If anybody wants to make a modification where he woul do the job himself, we are basicaly not against it. There is already a thread, where this topic is being discussed. Generaly, before we give a permission, we would like to know who will be participating and what is the exact project (which I guess in this case would be pretty obvious).

We are ready to answer any questions regarding this topic, just in case of requests we would like to ask you for patience, as much of the team is now pretty busy IRL.
 
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I guess it's a good idea to clarify our position on the subject to everyone now that several modders have expressed their interest in creating a 769 bookmark themselves. Thanks for opening this thread Elvain
 
Many of you may already noticed this information from various sources and I feel sorry for all the other HIP team members to repeatedly answer the same question why.

First of all, it is only SWMH, other HIP modules do support this bookmark, so if you want to play Charlemagne with HIP, you can, but not on SWMH map.

The reason why we decided not to include 769 is not that hard to guess:
We were facing the same problem already in 867 bookmark, where there were historical sources for only about 1/2 - 2/3 of the map with pretty much no reliable information. As of 769 this got even worse and except the core Middle eastern parts of Islamic civilization and Byzantine empire and some, but definitely not enough information about Western Europe, there are very large areas where we know very little or even literaly nothing (in 867 we at least knew that there were some tribes occupying roughly defined area, but in 769 even this is even more uncertain.

As we believe that the major added value of our mod (except offering more beautiful map than vanilla :D) is making the map more historicaly accurate, but for the above mentioned reasons we can not promise this objective for 769. In fact it would mean that we fill more than half (but in fact it would be 2/3 - 3/4) of the map with fantasy placeholders rulers. We are sorry about this and we know many people will be disappointed about it, but we believe it is better to do something where the added value of our work would be more valuable. After all, filling the map with placeholders is something what any medium skilled modder can do with enough will and patience.

As a compensation for the lack of this bookmark we decided to use all our capacities (which are unfortunately ATM very limitted) to Asian expansion and later to offering a bookmark between 867-1066 - there's already a thread for this. The current favourites seem to be 855 or something between 898-1001.

If anybody wants to make a modification where he woul do the job himself, we are basicaly not against it. There is already a thread, where this topic is being discussed. Generaly, before we give a permission, we would like to know who will be participating and what is the exact project (which I guess in this case would be pretty obvious).

We are ready to answer any questions regarding this topic, just in case of requests we would like to ask you for patience, as much of the team is now pretty busy IRL.

I completely agree with this move. Someone had to be the Gandalf of the forum and say "Thou shall not pass!"

Your mod is great and I look forward to playing it for years to come!
 
As a compensation for the lack of this bookmark we decided to use all our capacities (which are unfortunately ATM very limited) to Asian expansion
Could you elaborate a bit on that, for those of us who might have missed any announcement upon this? Thanks in advance, and greatly looking forward to the fruit of your labour :)
 
Could you elaborate a bit on that, for those of us who might have missed any announcement upon this? Thanks in advance, and greatly looking forward to the fruit of your labour :)

There is a two page thread dedicated to the subject where people discuss the best possible startdates. And where we have sort of given some answers that are still valid at the current moment

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?795898-SWMH-Starting-date-between-867-and-1066
 
Not talking about the new start date (hence why I didn't quote it). Rather asking what was meant about the Asian expansion. Sorry, I guess a bit of a latecomer to the topic, if it has been discussed at length before :unsure:
 
Not talking about the new start date (hence why I didn't quote it). Rather asking what was meant about the Asian expansion. Sorry, I guess a bit of a latecomer to the topic, if it has been discussed at length before :unsure:

There are three mod dev diaries that deal with what they are adding. If memory serves me correctly they are not adding all of india just a little bit as well as all the land to india.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...MH-Asian-expansion-Dev-diary-1-de-jure-Persia
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...nsion-Dev-diary-2-de-jure-Turkestan-and-India
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...SWMH-Asian-expansion-Dev-diary-3-Turks-in-867
 
I understand why, but I'm still a bit sad. Seems I will never play the Charlemagne bookmark!
 
Good. Thought the whole idea of a Charlemagne based DLC was utterly ridiculous, bought it anyway though to see how it played... wasn't really impressed by it frankly... no pun intended :p Would love to see either year 1000 or somewhere in the 900s. Eitherway great decision, keep up the magical work!
 
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Woody, chances are someone will bring across the vanilla start to the SWMH map. well thats the hopes.... Though to be honest I gave the Charlemagne bookmark one play through and there isnt that much special about it. Once SWMH releases there extended map I will care far less about earlier bookmarks (Persian Empire Reborn, here I come!)

Only good reason to but the DLC is for the new mechanics which the mod will undoubtedly put to good use. (for those people who play HIP)
 
It has other DLC-exclusive features. Of course, whether you consider them worth your money ...
... just buy it in a sale ;)

Personally I think that decisions is perfectly reasonably. Even with the 867 start date things tend to develop really weirdly, barely resembling what actually happened in history, and that'd only ever get worse by going further back in time. No big loss. ^^
 
Im crestfallen but since its the HISTORICAL immersion project i suppose it would be odd to add stuff there is no data on. Still a shame wont be playing CH for a while the vanilla map is unplayable now after the greatness that is SWMH.




EDITL: can we still use SWMH with CH but of course use the 876 start date still? or does SWMH just not work across the board for CH?
 
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maybe you guys can make a fantasy 769 start? Make Europe into a bunch of different heresies, pagans, etc? P: IF there won't be a historical one, I think a fun one may still be cool
 
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maybe you guys can make a fantasy 769 start? Make Europe into a bunch of different heresies, pagans, etc? P: IF there won't be a historical one, I think a fun one may still be cool

That doesn't really interest anyone on the team either. If someone else would like to create a Fantasy 769 start or just adapt the Vanilla 769 start to the SWMH map they are more than welcome to do the work and then get the permission from us to release it but we will be focusing solely on the later starts and getting more regions overhauled.
 
Im crestfallen but since its the HISTORICAL immersion project i suppose it would be odd to add stuff there is no data on. Still a shame wont be playing CH for a while the vanilla map is unplayable now after the greatness that is SWMH.




EDITL: can we still use SWMH with CH but of course use the 796 start date still? or does SWMH just not work across the board for CH?
First of all thank you all for your understanding.
To asnwer the question here. Frankly when I noticed that the DLC would be Charlemagne, I was vastly disappointed and had no intention to buy the DLC at all. Then it offered several more interesting features so I decided to buy it and really the motivation behind this is not some disregard towards the PDS team on this DLC, but really rather the fact that we don't feel our work would have the value we want to give you.
Therefore our very welcoming position towards those who wish to make 769 submod. Frankly I have respect to anyone who would do it, because I know what an annoying work it is going to be and that it won't be as easy as some people may imagine (after all you need to edit history of many of 1500 province history files and over 1600 title history files, not speaking about potentialy necessary adding all those placeholder characters, especially in areas like West Africa which are not in vanilla, or those, which are very different from vanilla where you will have nobody to play).

For the above mentioned complications I think it would be quite problematic to use 769 bookmark with SWMH. You can re-add it if you wish in your personal settings, but there will be mess of rulers and many areas will be completely empty
 
It's very understandable; creating a start for that date would compromise the (quite awesome) vision behind SMWH. Considering the high quality of SMWH so far, I wouldn't prefer it.
 
It's very understandable; creating a start for that date would compromise the (quite awesome) vision behind SMWH. Considering the high quality of SMWH so far, I wouldn't prefer it.

Yeah, but there is that one unreasonable guy... calls himself the Popular Front. He's over there... SPLITAH!