[SWMH] North Africa and the Sahara - discussion

[elvain]

Also, could we have a north/west africa thread? There's arguably some issues with the cultures and religion there. The berber cultures are spread out a bit inappropriately (Masmuda especially but would probably need more provinces in morocco to fix this,) and much of its localisation shares spanish names and such which is sort of confusing. Ibadi as dominant religion in 1066 makes little sense, as well as there being no available tuareg rulers.

So there was a request, so let's discuss it.

I assume that the religious setup of 1066 and beyond is not ideal and Ibadism should not be as spread as in 867, but it certainly should still be present in the Sahara, inland parts of Maghreb and also some parts of Sub-Saharan Africa (but there it should be replaced by the sunni religion after the conversion of Ghana of 1076).

I'm all eager to discuss the cultures setup of the Berbers. Here is the map, so please tell me what do you think is wrong there and why and how it should be better:

To make things clear:
Znága are the Sanhája (sedentary northern Sanhája tribes with fair skin)
Tagelmust are Veiled Sanhája (desert nomads with dark skin)
Imesmuden are the Masmúda (fair skinned mostly mountain tribes)
Aznáta are the Zanáta (fair skinned mostly nomadic tribes)
Kel Tamashek are the Tuaregs (Saharan nomads of mixed /mainly Tagelmust/ origin, with dark skin)

The division of Sanhája to Sanhája/Znága and Veiled Sanhája/Tagelmust had several reasons. One of them was skin colour, but also diferent lifestyle - while the SWMH Znága are mostly sedentary Sanhája living in the mountains, the Tagelmust are the famous veiled Sanhája - wild Saharan nomadic tribes. The distinction between nomads and sedentaties will be clear with the new version, where the nomads got special "Beduin tribe" retinues, whose numbers will largely increase if they are independent rulers of desert provinces.

I suppose that the remarks about the wrong distribution of Masmúda were meant to an older version of SWMH in which the name Masmúda was wrongly used for the Tagelmust.

EDIT:
If you answer today earlier in the afternoon (CET), there would be a high chance that your proposal might be included in the next version which will be released in the evening.

 

[cybrxkhan]

May I request to see the political maps as well just for fun?

 

[elvain]

here you go:
867:

there are few things missing though, the 3 independent states in Maghreb - the Midrarids, Barghawata and the Salihids.

1066:

 

[theKing1988]

The religious setup in general for all of the map could use an update. For later starts there is still patches of Sunni Islam (and Andalusi Culture) in Spain where there should be none. And West African Paganism are still massive in West Africa.

 

[EmperorTojo]

For starters, I think Ibadi religion has gotten way too much influence even in the old gods scenario. From what little I know, the Ibadi movement was centered around bits of northern Algeria to central/southern Algeria, and had the most power in that region. What evidence would support its current widespread state? But yeah, regardless, by 1066 the fatimid caliphate would have crushed the movement and the last followers having fled to a particular area within Algeria. But yeah point is, too many Ibadi characters when there probably should be none. The lack of Ibadi characters in Oman at the same startdate is a bit depressing though. Anyway, Why does Aznata culture rule over Kel Tamashek? I am not sure if it is accurate or not, but yeah.

And the culture names, wouldn't berber versions be better, even if they are perhaps modern? I'm not sure what language Znága and Aznáta is. Wikipedia gives Aẓnag or Iẓnagen for Sanhaja and Iznaten for Zenata. Shouldn't the bendouin tribes sent by the fatimids into north africa (Banu Riyah, Banu Hilal, etc) be shia faith? They were sent in to crush the Zirids and Hammadids for denouncing the caliphate, which seems to imply that they are of shia faith. Speaking of that, shouldn't sicily be shia, really? I know it isn't north africa but it has been ruled by a shia dynasty ever since it was conquered by the muslims, so why is its people sunni?

Here's a map of what I feel should be re-made on the cultural/political map:

Spoiler

I feel that Riyah should have larger control there since they weakened the Hammadids and Zirids, and I read that the Zirids were reducded to a strip along the coast.

Onto the cultures: Red is masmuda, yellow is tagelmust, teal is sanhaja and green is Zenata, blue is Soninke.

The roughly drawn borders of Masmuda somewhat represents modern location of the Atlas languages. To correctly portray this though Morocco would need another province or two, or redrawn borders. Masmuda should be dominant in the mountains at least. As for the yellow, Marrakesh was built by the tagelmust just a few years before the 1066 scenario and I am guessing it was populated by that people and it was the capital of the Almoravid. But I am not sure if they were the dominant culture in the whole province. I know that the Zenata were fairly spread out, even having tribes in west africa which I have drawn in blue, but were they really the primary culture there? I believe they weren't. As for the green, I cannot really find any information concerning the location of Sanhaja tribes, other than the tagelmust and tribes centered in Algeria/Tunisia. The wiki on Almoravid suggests that Zenata tribes were dominant in northern morocco.

 

[elvain]

I'm sorry, but I will answer propperly later, but thanks for your suggestions.

 

[EmperorTojo]

Could you please provide some sources where you found this? Because in case that Wikipedia contradicts some other book/study source, I usualy tend to prefer the other sources over Wiki.. and most of the suggestions you made are those where Wiki contradicts the other sources.

Yes, the distribution of Masmuda is more correct if we change the current provinces setup, but ATM it is nothing I plan to do and with the current provincial setup, I believe the current distribution is fine. I don't think that the current setup of North Africa is ideal or perfect, but still little more correct than the suggestions you made.. in most but not all cases.

More detailed answer will come after I'm done with the version to be released.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty

The Berber peoples of the Maghreb in the early Middle Ages could be roughly classified into three major groups: the Zenata across the north, the Masmuda concentrated in central Morocco, and the Sanhaja, clustered in two areas: the western part of the Sahara and the hills of the eastern Maghreb.[10][11]

More read on Almoravid also says that the Zenata tribes were dominant in northern morocco. And as I said, there were berber tribes in west africa (blue circle) as I had read on wiki itself but it seems strange to me that they are the primary culture there, which I do not think they ever were.

What else do you need sources for? But yeah, I just don't have any information on Sanhaja especially being clustered around in random areas, and I have firm belief that they were always mainly concentrated in algeria/tunisia.

And what about shia religion with the bedouins and in sicily?

 

[theKing1988]

For starters, I think Ibadi religion has gotten way too much influence even in the old gods scenario. From what little I know, the Ibadi movement was centered around bits of northern Algeria to central/southern Algeria, and had the most power in that region. What evidence would support its current widespread state? But yeah, regardless, by 1066 the fatimid caliphate would have crushed the movement and the last followers having fled to a particular area within Algeria. But yeah point is, too many Ibadi characters when there probably should be none. The lack of Ibadi characters in Oman at the same startdate is a bit depressing though. Anyway, Why does Aznata culture rule over Kel Tamashek? I am not sure if it is accurate or not, but yeah.

And the culture names, wouldn't berber versions be better, even if they are perhaps modern? I'm not sure what language Znága and Aznáta is. Wikipedia gives Aẓnag or Iẓnagen for Sanhaja and Iznaten for Zenata. Shouldn't the bendouin tribes sent by the fatimids into north africa (Banu Riyah, Banu Hilal, etc) be shia faith? They were sent in to crush the Zirids and Hammadids for denouncing the caliphate, which seems to imply that they are of shia faith. Speaking of that, shouldn't sicily be shia, really? I know it isn't north africa but it has been ruled by a shia dynasty ever since it was conquered by the muslims, so why is its people sunni?

Here's a map of what I feel should be re-made on the cultural/political map:

Spoiler

View attachment 101619

View attachment 101620

I feel that Riyah should have larger control there since they weakened the Hammadids and Zirids, and I read that the Zirids were reducded to a strip along the coast.

Onto the cultures: Red is masmuda, yellow is tagelmust, teal is sanhaja and green is Zenata, blue is Soninke.

The roughly drawn borders of Masmuda somewhat represents modern location of the Atlas languages. To correctly portray this though Morocco would need another province or two, or redrawn borders. Masmuda should be dominant in the mountains at least. As for the yellow, Marrakesh was built by the tagelmust just a few years before the 1066 scenario and I am guessing it was populated by that people and it was the capital of the Almoravid. But I am not sure if they were the dominant culture in the whole province. I know that the Zenata were fairly spread out, even having tribes in west africa which I have drawn in blue, but were they really the primary culture there? I believe they weren't. As for the green, I cannot really find any information concerning the location of Sanhaja tribes, other than the tagelmust and tribes centered in Algeria/Tunisia. The wiki on Almoravid suggests that Zenata tribes were dominant in northern morocco.

I think you pinpoint the problem right there with the current setup and your suggestions. From what i have read, modern distribution of Berber languages and Culture and the distribution of Berber Culture and Language in 867, 1066 and 1081, differs enormously. Berber culture were vastly dominant in North Africa up until the Banu Hillal invasions which occured at the very beginning of the game. Only then did Arab start to supplant the berber languages and the berber culture. So what the Wikipedia article tells you about Modern distribution of Berbers is pretty useless in a CK2 context.

What else do you need sources for? But yeah, I just don't have any information on Sanhaja especially being clustered around in random areas, and I have firm belief that they were always mainly concentrated in algeria/tunisia.

And he needs sources to confirm wikipedia, because wikipedia is hardly that reliable compared to actual historical books that can verify the info on wikipedia.

 

[EmperorTojo]

I think you pinpoint the problem right there with the current setup and your suggestions. From what i have read, modern distribution of Berber languages and Culture and the distribution of Berber Culture and Language in 867, 1066 and 1081, differs enormously. Berber culture were vastly dominant in North Africa up until the Banu Hillal invasions which occured at the very beginning of the game. Only then did Arab start to supplant the berber languages and the berber culture. So what the Wikipedia article tells you about Modern distribution of Berbers is pretty useless in a CK2 context.

I suppose so, but I only went with modern distribution of "Masmuda languages." This is pretty much how it appears to be already.

 

[elvain]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty

The Berber peoples of the Maghreb in the early Middle Ages could be roughly classified into three major groups: the Zenata across the north, the Masmuda concentrated in central Morocco, and the Sanhaja, clustered in two areas: the western part of the Sahara and the hills of the eastern Maghreb.[10][11]

More read on Almoravid also says that the Zenata tribes were dominant in northern morocco. And as I said, there were berber tribes in west africa (blue circle) as I had read on wiki itself but it seems strange to me that they are the primary culture there, which I do not think they ever were.

What else do you need sources for? But yeah, I just don't have any information on Sanhaja especially being clustered around in random areas, and I have firm belief that they were always mainly concentrated in algeria/tunisia.

And what about shia religion with the bedouins and in sicily?

Well, I meant sources beyond Wikipedia.
It is just a rough classification. If you get to read detailed studies on Berbers, you'll see that there actualy were Sanhaja tribes living in the Rif mountains... and these detailed studies often contradict Wikipedia.
And honestly, when Wiki contradicts some study or book on the same topic, I always prefer the other source and its citations over Wiki.

Sicily was, AFIAK conquered by the Aghlabid, Since when they were a shia dynasty I have no idea. That's all I can say about shiite Sicily. About Riyahids being shiite, that's quite possible, but I need to read more about it before switching them... I don't remember now but it probably had some reason why they were made sunni.

Like theKing said, the distribution of medieval Berber tribes is totally diferent today than back then. Some tribes now even belong to different groups than they used to back in CK2 period. The Tuaregs for instance are a mixture of Sanhája and Zanáta tribes.

PS: I am very sorry if I sound arrogant, but frankly I really hate when somebody reads an article on Wikipedia and starts claiming that a work which was based on reading houndreds of pages of specialised books and surveys is wrong because Wikipedia says something else.
I don't claim myself to be an expert or anything about Berbers or whatever. I know I was wrong many times and I may be also this time and that's why I am asking for sources. It is always good to learn something that proves me wrong. Those I have uded may well be outdated...
If you want, I could send you some of the sources I used for this setup.. I just hoped that the critisism of this bad SWMH African setup was based on something more than an article about Almoravids on Wikipedia.

 

[theKing1988]

Well, I meant sources beyond Wikipedia.
It is just a rough classification. If you get to read detailed studies on Berbers, you'll see that there actualy were Sanhaja tribes living in the Rif mountains... and these detailed studies often contradict Wikipedia.
And honestly, when Wiki contradicts some study or book on the same topic, I always prefer the other source and its citations over Wiki.

Sicily was, AFIAK conquered by the Aghlabid, Since when they were a shia dynasty I have no idea. That's all I can say about shiite Sicily. About Riyahids being shiite, that's quite possible, but I need to read more about it before switching them... I don't remember now but it probably had some reason why they were made sunni.

Like theKing said, the distribution of medieval Berber tribes is totally diferent today than back then. Some tribes now even belong to different groups than they used to back in CK2 period. The Tuaregs for instance are a mixture of Sanhája and Zanáta tribes.

PS: I am very sorry if I sound arrogant, but frankly I really hate when somebody reads an article on Wikipedia and starts claiming that a work which was based on reading houndreds of pages of specialised books and surveys is wrong because Wikipedia says something else.
I don't claim myself to be an expert or anything about Berbers or whatever, I only have red little more than somebody else. I know that it is unfair to ask for sources when I don't provide any... so if you want, I could send you some of the sources I used for this setup.. I just feel that the critisism of how bad SWMH African setup is based on something more than an article about Almoravids on Wikipedia.

According to what i've read the Aghlabids were Sunni. So having Sicily be Sunni sounds very accurate to me.

But the discussion of the Berber names and the political setup seems like fair game to me. I have no idea where Elvain got that spelling from, but i recognize Iznagen and Iznaten as well. And the sources i have read on Tunisia and Eastern Algeria are a bit iffy on borders in the early period, so i'm not gonna be bombastic on that issue.

 

[EmperorTojo]

According to what i've read the Aghlabids were Sunni. So having Sicily be Sunni sounds very accurate to me.

Didn't the Kalbids rule in sicily? And I mean, all of the rulers are shia and that, even in old gods startdate I believe, but the provinces are forever sunni.

 

[theKing1988]

Didn't the Kalbids rule in sicily? And I mean, all of the rulers are shia and that, even in old gods startdate I believe, but the provinces are forever sunni.

If you read the actual article yourself, it actually says that the Kalbids didn't gain actual control of Sicily until 948, which was 121 years after the initial Arab invasion of the island.

I just went into one of my sources and found this for you about Fatimid/Shia presence in North Africa/Sicily

The governors the Fatimids established in Sicily and North Africa did not always welcome their rule, however, given the doctrinal differences between their Sunni populations and the Shi‘ia rulers of Egypt. In fact, the Shi‘ia traveler Ibn Hawqal noted the hatred of the Sunni Sicilians for their nominal Fatimid rulers. The Fatimid representatives in the Maghrib, including Tunisia, in the eleventh century were the Zirids. They rebelled against Fatimid rule, leading the Fatimids to send nomadic tribes against them in 1052. There was unrest in Sicily as well. A local dynasty, the Kalbids, had emerged as the rulers there in the 950s. Rule of the island had fragmented by the eleventh century, and emirs in the towns were competing with one another for dominance.

 

[elvain]

According to what i've read the Aghlabids were Sunni. So having Sicily be Sunni sounds very accurate to me.

But the discussion of the Berber names and the political setup seems like fair game to me. I have no idea where Elvain got that spelling from, but i recognize Iznagen and Iznaten as well. And the sources i have read on Tunisia and Eastern Algeria are a bit iffy on borders in the early period, so i'm not gonna be bombastic on that issue.

The names:
Aznága and Aznáta were, IIRC, old names, with Znága being one of possible variations of Aznága. IIRC it was in one of the artiles I read about Sanhája Berbers where these old names were used, I can llok it up some time later.
Iznagen and Iznaten are in fact their modern versions... or the ways how they were transcribed later (note that Aznáta/Iznaten, if written in arabic script, are in fact the same, just except the -n ending).

Didn't the Kalbids rule in sicily? And I mean, all of the rulers are shia and that, even in old gods startdate I believe, but the provinces are forever sunni.

Yes, the Kalbids did rule there, but it was conquered and converted by the Aghlabids, who also ruled there during the Old Gods scenario.

But I can't speak much about Sicily as I did not touch it yet and did not do any real research about it.

I'm affraid that it suffers the general SWMH problem - that the history files are compatible with 867 and 1066 starts, but most probably not with later scenarios, especialy if there were some major changes. We just first try to do the history for the earliest and most played scenarios first.

Even with this approach a normal SWMH update takes several months. If we were doing the entire history for every region, I would have been now finnishing my first overhaul of West Africa and Maghreb.

 

[EmperorTojo]

Yes, the Kalbids did rule there, but it was conquered and converted by the Aghlabids, who also ruled there during the Old Gods scenario.

Kalbids were appointed emirs of Sicily by the fatimid caliphate, so they came after the Aghlabids.

 

[elvain]

Kalbids were appointed emirs of Sicily by the fatimid caliphate, so they came after the Aghlabids.

Exactly as I said. So what's the problem? Sicily was conquered by the sunni Aghlabids who converted it to (sunni) islam.
If there is any hard data that the Fatimids or Kalbids did effectively converted it (Sicily) to shia, it might be changed.

However I am sorry but I will not change the setup due to assumptions based on reading one wikipedia article. And this I mean also to other suggestions posted earlier, because vast majority of them simply contradicts what I have red outside Wikipedia about the Berbers/Maghreb.
One of the few exceptions is the distribution of Masmúda, which was suggested correctly. But unless we change province borders (which is not planned any time soon), the current setup seems fine/better to me.

 

[theKing1988]

Exactly as I said. So what's the problem? Sicily was conquered by the sunnis and was most probably predominantly sunni which even later rule of shiite dynasties did not change.

According to everything i have read, substantial Shia populations were very rare anywhere West of Syria/Iraq/Iran/Yemen. The only reason why the Fatimids and other Shiite dynasties rose to power in the Maghreb was due to it's distance from the Islamic centres of power. And it is pretty safe to assume that the Fatimids were either unable or unwilling to spend that much power and energy on converting their Sunni population given the fact that after 200 years of rule in Egypt the Shia population was still tiny in the country. Egypt should according to everything i have read have no or max 1 to 2 shia provinces, i'm not really sure why they have 11

If you look at my earlier post i've found a dissertation where there is being referred to a comment from a Shia traveller about the hatred of the Sunni Sicilians towards their Shia overlords, so i'm not just making this up.

 

[elvain]

According to everything i have read, substantial Shia populations were very rare anywhere West of Syria/Iraq/Iran. The only reason why the Fatimids and other Shiite dynasties rose to power in the Maghreb was due to it's distance from the Islamic centres of power. And it is pretty safe to assume that the Fatimids were either unable or unwilling to spend that much power and energy on converting their Sunni population given the fact that after 200 years of rule in Egypt the Shia population was still tiny in the country. Egypt should according to everything i have read have no or max 1 to 2 shia provinces, i'm not really sure why they have 11

If you look at my earlier post i've found a dissertation where there is being referred to a comment from a Shia traveller about the hatred of the Sunni Sicilians towards their Shia overlords, so i'm not just making this up.

You are right about this - do we really have that many shia provinces in Egypt? I thought I turned vast majority of them to sunna or christianity...

One of the reasons of Fatimid success in the Maghreb was the Berber oposition to the Arabs, which motivated heresies (one of the reasons why the Berbers were predominantly Ibadi).

PS: Yes, I know about both the hostility of sunni populations and I even noticed that quote you mentioned

 

[theKing1988]

You are right about this - do we really have that many shia provinces in Egypt? I thought I turned vast majority of them to sunna or christianity...

One of the reasons of Fatimid success in the Maghreb was the Berber oposition to the Arabs, which motivated heresies (one of the reasons why the Berbers were predominantly Ibadi).

PS: Yes, I know about both the hostility of sunni populations and I even noticed that quote you mentioned

It might be the HIP mix i have running i don't know. It has caused several other issues (look in the bug thread) some of them could be due to that .

ETA: Or it could be due to the fact that i had the Alexiad bookmark opened.

 

[elvain]

It might be the HIP mix i have running i don't know. It has caused several other issues (look in the bug thread) some of them could be due to that .

ETA: Or it could be due to the fact that i had the Alexiad bookmark opened.

maybe the HIP problem. Should not be problem with the Alexiad as I don't think I coded conversions to shia in Egypt, but I may be wrong. I'm having some sleeping deficit and am currently at work so I can't really check it.