[SWMH] HRE - culture split

[Cardinal Sin]

The HRE's stability is, in many ways, due to the (mostly) ahistorical German monoculture in its boundaries. Many idea for splits have been thrown about, but in a medieval context, I only really find one model convincing - the one that splits the cultures up along the lines of the stem duchies.

Therefore, we would probably need 5 new cultures (four German and one French):

-Bairisch - that covers Bavaria and Austria
-Schwäbisch - covering Swabia, German Switzerland and Alsace
-Fränkisch - covering Franconia and the Upper Rhineland all the way to Cologne
-Sächsisch - covering Northern Germany
-Lorrain - covering Lorraine, Bar, Montbeliard and other French-speaking parts of the HRE.

I know that often dukes and counts from other tribes were put in charge in many regions of Germany, but I thing we can mostly disregard any discrepancies in culture for balance's sake (like PDS made Saladin Egyptian rather than Kurdish).

 

[theKing1988]

The HRE's stability is, in many ways, due to the (mostly) ahistorical German monoculture in its boundaries. Many idea for splits have been thrown about, but in a medieval context, I only really find one model convincing - the one that splits the cultures up along the lines of the stem duchies.

Therefore, we would probably need 5 new cultures (four German and one French):

-Bairisch - that covers Bavaria and Austria
-Schwäbisch - covering Swabia, German Switzerland and Alsace
-Fränkisch - covering Franconia and the Upper Rhineland all the way to Cologne
-Sächsisch - covering Northern Germany
-Lorrain - covering Lorraine, Bar, Montbeliard and other French-speaking parts of the HRE.

I know that often dukes and counts from other tribes were put in charge in many regions of Germany, but I thing we can mostly disregard any discrepancies in culture for balance's sake (like PDS made Saladin Egyptian rather than Kurdish).

I know that Aasmul is considering a three-way split already (Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch) so it's not that far from yours.

Ruwaard on the other hand have suggested that the German culture only be split into two (at least for the later starts 1066- )

 

[Cardinal Sin]

I know that Aasmul is considering a three-way split already (Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch) so it's not that far from yours.

Ruwaard on the other hand have suggested that the German culture only be split into two (at least for the later starts 1066- )

Of those two, I would prefer the two-way split. A three-way split would only make sense if you would call them Hochdeutsch (Swabians and Bavarians grouped together), Mitteldeutsch and Niederdeutsch - but I am not really sure that you can use these modern concepts in a medieval context. Hence, I would propose a four- or five-way split, or a two-way split if that is too complicated.

 

[Ruwaard]

As indicated for the 876 start having Saxon, Franconian (including Thuringian), Allemanic, Bavarian and Low Frankish (Dutch) IMHO makes most sense. Regarding the Romance languages in the HRE, they didn't all speak Lorraine. For instance in the Low Countries, there's Walloon and Picard. Picard, also spoken in parts of northern France, was a cultural factor (in those regions) in medieval times.

For later starts keeping all the tribal entities makes less sense. Eventually there IMHO should be a two way split (or three if you include Dutch).

Regarding Hochdeutsch, Allemanic and Bavarian dialects drifted apart over time. OTOH during the period reign of the Hohenstaufen (1150-1250) a unifying court language developed.
There also are political concerns, like how the stem duchy of Bavaria was gradually decreased. Carinthia was separated from it in the 10th century; however the Hohenstaufen separated Austria (1156) and Styria (1180) from it, turning it into an internal duchy (it lost all marches neighboring foreign realms).

 

[Ruwaard]

@ Cardinal: well representing the other related culture of the duke, different from his ducal vassals and subjects does have some advantages. It can represent difficulties to establish their rule, this certainly was an issue in the period between 867-1066.

 

[tajerio]

@Ruwaard: The only problem I see with splitting German culture into only two or three by the latter part of the CK2 timeline is that it effectively precludes the possibility of an intelligent modelling of the effects of culture on a non-elite level. On an elite level, obviously it makes a lot of sense.

 

[unc15]

when eventual plans happen to incorporate a cultural split, would that make saves from the current version of HIP no longer work? I'd love to incorporate this into my AAR whenever it happens.

 

[Ruwaard]

@Ruwaard: The only problem I see with splitting German culture into only two or three by the latter part of the CK2 timeline is that it effectively precludes the possibility of an intelligent modelling of the effects of culture on a non-elite level. On an elite level, obviously it makes a lot of sense.

'Only' really depends on ones point of view. Like I said in the earliest start date, IMHO the situation should be a lot more diversified along tribal lines. However during this period, more cultures were forming. Sure the elites played an important role in this process, but that isn't unique for German. Widening the concept to non elite would also raise questions about certain other cultures. Like why shouldn't Frankish (French) and Occitan be split further? Or the narrow this a bit futher, during medieval times, the dialect of Ile de France wasn't as dominant as it would later become, with other dialects, like Picard and Norman being more prominent.

Something similar also applies to German, and one could continue the analogy, by stating that Low German (and Dutch), like Occitan, is different enough from the standard French or in this case German, to stay different. In case of German, the (elites of) other groups were moving towards a 'standard', creating a situation more similar to the situation of Frankish, which regardless of any differences within the Langue d'Oil group is more or less seen as one culture. I'd argue that by the middle of the period covered by the game, the situation for German (Hochdeutsch) wasn't much different.

 

[theKing1988]

'Only' really depends on ones point of view. Like I said in the earliest start date, IMHO the situation should be a lot diversified along tribal lines. However during this period, more cultures were forming. Sure the elites played an important role in this process, but that isn't unique for German. Widening the concept to non elite would also raise questions about certain other cultures. Like why shouldn't Frankish (French) and Occitan be split further? Or the narrow this a bit futher, during medieval times, the dialect of Ile de France wasn't as dominant as it would later become, with other dialects, like Picard and Norman being more prominent.

Something similar also applies to German, and one could continue the analogy, by stating that Low German (and Dutch), like Occitan, is different enough from the standard French or in this case German, to stay different. In case of German, the (elites of) other groups were moving towards a 'standard', creating a situation more similar to the situation of Frankish, which regardless of any differences within the Langue d'Oil group is more or less seen as one culture. I'd argue that by the middle of the period covered by the game, the situation German (Hochdeutsch) wasn't much different.

The more i think about it, i actually like the two-way split. I'm not a big fan of Hochdeutsch and Niederdeutsch for culture names though

 

[eatme]

Considering that stem duchies, which were v-aligned along their corresponding tribal and geographical lines, remained somewhat in place until Hohenstaufens reign. I.e. at least till major disintegration in 1180. It makes sense for the 3 or 4 ways ethnic division in 1066 start date. Imo I like more complex division from immersion and GP perspective. Saying this, I d agree that even 2 ways split would be good.
Definitely looking fwd to this, as I really like playing HRE factions. (usually starting some small count and taking him to Emperor -)

 

[Aasmul]

Like why shouldn't Frankish (French) and Occitan be split further? Or the narrow this a bit futher, during medieval times, the dialect of Ile de France wasn't as dominant as it would later become, with other dialects, like Picard and Norman being more prominent.

Not certain(was some talk internally about it many months ago but can't remember if there ever was a conclusion on it) but its possible Occitan might get split into 2-3 and have its own culture group with Catalan added to it one day, its not right around the corner if it happens though. d'Oil will likely stay as it is with three cultures but of course have Arpitan covering a bigger area than now, was a mistake adding Arpitan with the Italian culture overhaul instead of waiting for a French one I guess. After the Germans has been sorted the Arpitans will defiantly be next inline.

Bairisch, Schwäbisch, Fränkisch, Sächsisch, Diets until 962 and then Hochdeutsch, Niederdeutsch and Diets from 962 up?

 

[JonStryker]

Not certain(was some talk internally about it many months ago but can't remember if there ever was a conclusion on it) but its possible Occitan might get split into 2-3 and have its own culture group with Catalan added to it one day, its not right around the corner if it happens though. d'Oil will likely stay as it is with three cultures but of course have Arpitan covering a bigger area than now, was a mistake adding Arpitan with the Italian culture overhaul instead of waiting for a French one I guess. After the Germans has been sorted the Arpitans will defiantly be next inline.

Bairisch, Schwäbisch, Fränkisch, Sächsisch, Diets until 962 and then Hochdeutsch, Niederdeutsch and Diets from 962 up?

Isn't Diets and Niederdeutsch one and the same?

 

[Aasmul]

Isn't Diets and Niederdeutsch one and the same?

Diets=Dutch/low Frankish

 

[Ruwaard]

Not certain(was some talk internally about it many months ago but can't remember if there ever was a conclusion on it) but its possible Occitan might get split into 2-3 and have its own culture group with Catalan added to it one day, its not right around the corner if it happens though. d'Oil will likely stay as it is with three cultures but of course have Arpitan covering a bigger area than now, was a mistake adding Arpitan with the Italian culture overhaul instead of waiting for a French one I guess. After the Germans has been sorted the Arpitans will defiantly be next inline.

Bairisch, Schwäbisch, Fränkisch, Sächsisch, Diets until 962 and then Hochdeutsch, Niederdeutsch and Diets from 962 up?

Apparently the Germans started to describe themselves as Deutsche (German for Germans ) during the High Middle Ages (1050-1250). OTOH it was used to describe the Germanic population of the kingdom of East Francia since the 10th century.
Then there also is the cultural influence the dialect of the Hohenstaufen court had (roughly 1150-1250).
So maybe 962 could be a bit too soon, perhaps after the end of the Saxon Ottonian (Liudolfing) dynasty in 1024, when the Salian dynasty from Franconia became kings and Emperors.
OTOH this doesn't have to happen at the same moment for all subgroups. In general linguistics tend to mark 1050 as the time, when Old High German became Middle High German. However the boundary between Old Bavarian (Altbairisch) and Bavarian Middle High German (Bairisches Mittelhochdeutsch) is usually set at 1100.

Regardless this IMHO might also make a melting pot events necessary, with Bairisch, Schwäbisch and Fränkisch (Upper Frankish) becoming Hochdeutsch. This should probably happen after a certain date under a ruler, which has the Bairisch, Schwäbisch, Fränkisch or Hochdeutsch culture.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

To be very honest, I think that it would be very much appropriate to leave Schwäbisch, Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch all the way up until 1453. After all, those are the peoples of the original stem duchies (still retaining a position of high prestige up until 1453, though the duchy of Swabia was pretty much dissolved by then), and there are still very apparent differences between those peoples in terms of culture, traditions and dialect until today. I think a melting pot event for Hochdeutsch would be both too complicated and not really worth the while, especially as Schwäbisch, Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch are, I believe, more distinct and memorable monikers than Hochdeutsch, Mitteldeutsch and Niederdeutsch. Especially as Schwäbisch, as opposed to Bairisch, was relatively unaffected by the second German consonant shift - many Swabian and Bavarian dialects are mutually unintelligible up until today.

 

[Aasmul]

Apparently the Germans started to describe themselves as Deutsche (German for Germans ) during the High Middle Ages (1050-1250). OTOH it was used to describe the Germanic population of the kingdom of East Francia since the 10th century.
Then there also is the cultural influence the dialect of the Hohenstaufen court had (roughly 1150-1250).
So maybe 962 could be a bit too soon, perhaps after the end of the Saxon Ottonian (Liudolfing) dynasty in 1024, when the Salian dynasty from Franconia became kings and Emperors.
OTOH this doesn't have to happen at the same moment for all subgroups. In general linguistics tend to mark 1050 as the time, when Old High German became Middle High German. However the boundary between Old Bavarian (Altbairisch) and Bavarian Middle High German (Bairisches Mittelhochdeutsch) is usually set at 1100.

Regardless this IMHO might also make a melting pot events necessary, with Bairisch, Schwäbisch and Fränkisch (Upper Frankish) becoming Hochdeutsch. This should probably happen after a certain date under a ruler, which has the Bairisch, Schwäbisch, Fränkisch or Hochdeutsch culture.

1024 then^^ I agree with the melting pot thing if split that way, we just need to figure out how/who adds it, if it can be done via PB+SWMH or VIET+SMWH it might be best.

To be very honest, I think that it would be very much appropriate to leave Schwäbisch, Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch all the way up until 1453. After all, those are the peoples of the original stem duchies (still retaining a position of high prestige up until 1453, though the duchy of Swabia was pretty much dissolved by then), and there are still very apparent differences between those peoples in terms of culture, traditions and dialect until today. I think a melting pot event for Hochdeutsch would be both too complicated and not really worth the while, especially as Schwäbisch, Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch are, I believe, more distinct and memorable monikers than Hochdeutsch, Mitteldeutsch and Niederdeutsch. Especially as Schwäbisch, as opposed to Bairisch, was relatively unaffected by the second German consonant shift - many Swabian and Bavarian dialects are mutually unintelligible up until today.

would certainly be simpler, and add more varity to the late HRE.

 

[Ruwaard]

To be very honest, I think that it would be very much appropriate to leave Schwäbisch, Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch all the way up until 1453. After all, those are the peoples of the original stem duchies (still retaining a position of high prestige up until 1453, though the duchy of Swabia was pretty much dissolved by then), and there are still very apparent differences between those peoples in terms of culture, traditions and dialect until today. I think a melting pot event for Hochdeutsch would be both too complicated and not really worth the while, especially as Schwäbisch, Bairisch, Fränkisch and Sächsisch are, I believe, more distinct and memorable monikers than Hochdeutsch, Mitteldeutsch and Niederdeutsch. Especially as Schwäbisch, as opposed to Bairisch, was relatively unaffected by the second German consonant shift - many Swabian and Bavarian dialects are mutually unintelligible up until today.

Not only was Swabia dissolved, but the other stem duchies were all greatly reduced to territorial duchies or in some cases more or less honorific titles.
Actually that's not, what I read about the difference between Allemanic and Bavarian, apparently these dialects started to diverge during the middle ages. However this isn't unique for German, one can see this phenomena within every language and between dialects of the same language. That's why I made the comparison with French, which also wasn't as monolithic as it would later become. Culture, especially of the elite, was more than linguistics alone (which is a factor).

Regarding the second consonant shift, when one moves from north to south its' influence increases, but it also increases when one moves from west to east. So the effect, especially on Swabian (or Allemanic) and Franconian varied, but the southernmost Swabian/Allemanic dialects were, relatively speaking, affected a lot.

 

[JasperClay]

Just speaking from a gameplay perspective, I think 4 or 5 divisions would be lovely. This differentiation would, if I understand correctly, help factionalize the HRE without giving every Emperor that "ruled by foreigner" malus with 75-80% of his subjects?

Also, is it possible to link a culture to two culture groups? Cultures like Occitan and Lorrain would be really fun if they could have half-bonuses with French and Spanish groups and French and German groups, respectively.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

Not only was Swabia dissolved, but the other stem duchies were all greatly reduced to territorial duchies or in some cases more or less honorific titles.
Actually that's not, what I read about the difference between Allemanic and Bavarian, apparently these dialects started to diverge during the middle ages. However this isn't unique for German, one can see this phenomena within every language and between dialects of the same language. That's why I made the comparison with French, which also wasn't as monolithic as it would later become. Culture, especially of the elite, was more than linguistics alone (which is a factor).

Regarding the second consonant shift, when one moves from north to south its' influence increases, but it also increases when one moves from west to east. So the effect, especially on Swabian (or Allemanic) and Franconian varied, but the southernmost Swabian/Allemanic dialects were, relatively speaking, affected a lot.

Yes, sorry, I actually meant the vowel shift that occurred in the middle ages. Schwäbisch retained the original form of words without diphtongs (dütsch), whereas hochdeutsch and bairisch got diphtongs (deutsch and deitsch).

So yes, I was getting that wrong, sorry. Though this shift I am talking about still occurred within the time of CKII...