And on to my favourite favourite passtime, random minor nitpicking! Shouldn't Samanids be spelled Somoniön in the spirit of SMWH loyalty to native spelling?
SWMH Asian expansion - Dev diary 3 - Turks in 867
- Thread starter elvain
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Oh btw, Elvain, I've noticed the Afshin COA doesn't appear Muslim, d'you have them as Zoroastrians, Manicheans, or Buddhists by any chance?
There's also the fact that they're probably one of the few Sogdian rulers available, so their underdog status should have so e appeal (hopefully when combined with VIET's Silk Road/Sogdian shenanigans /end shameless self-promotion)
Okay, so they are supposed to be quite a challenge. Got it
There's also the fact that they're probably one of the few Sogdian rulers available, so their underdog status should have so e appeal (hopefully when combined with VIET's Silk Road/Sogdian shenanigans /end shameless self-promotion)
Thanks for pointing this out! I am aware of this. All the "old/vanilla" dynasties have this problem, and the facelift is planned. I hope I won't forget about it.
When we're at it and this is a nice Turkish topic, I am really struggling hard to get Qarakhanids their propper name. Qarakhániyán or Khakáníya sounds too Persian for me and no Turkish name is available. I am considering turkicization of the name into like Qarakhánlar or Khakánlar, any better ideas?
btw, here are the original Qarakhanids:
and here the new Qarakhanids:
the 4 fleshed out rulers* will help you to spot the difference. For instance now they are properly divided into their Hasanid (right-eastern) and Alid (left-western) branches and the connection between the Hasanids and Ferghanian Qarakhanids is now done without elimination of first Ferghanian generations.
* they are Ali Arslan Khan, the ancestor of the Alid branch +
Yusuf Qadir Khan of the Hasanid branch *
Sulaymán b. Dáwúd b. Ibrahim Tamgach Khan °
and Hasan of the Ferghanian branch x
They're sunni in 867 (otherwise they wouldn't have survived), but their first ruler was zoroastrian so the dynasty bears zoroastrian CoAOh btw, Elvain, I've noticed the Afshin COA doesn't appear Muslim, d'you have them as Zoroastrians, Manicheans, or Buddhists by any chance?
There's also the fact that they're probably one of the few Sogdian rulers available, so their underdog status should have so e appeal (hopefully when combined with VIET's Silk Road/Sogdian shenanigans /end shameless self-promotion)Okay, so they are supposed to be quite a challenge. Got it
And yes, they are supposed to be a challenge and ATM I am considering ways to give them more ways of survival than samanid vasalage. Well, maybe we can switch this DD into Soghdian one
D) as I probably (as usualy) revealed little too much about the Turks and didn't point to the interesting facts like cultural changes which will happen to them...
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Well, with no contemporary Turkisation available, it's always possible to use some modern Turkic name for them. They are known as Qoraxoniylar in modern Uzbek, for example.
*drools*btw, here is the promissed religious view
So if I'm reading this correctly, there are going to be religious minorities?Sure there is, but depends on what you want to see..
For instance there are various minor communities spread all over the region, and they are planned to be represented, but you won't see them on the map, I'm affraid
Yes, they will, but as suggested above, they won't be there as provincial religion, but will be represented in other way... and the screenie shows one such. For instance, the province of Aqsu is a buddhist province owned by tengri ruler...
So baron-tier vassals will be a bunch of different cultures ad religions? Tat sounds neat.
I'm not sure that I'm understanding correctly; what you're describing, to me, sounds no different from what we already have.
It looks like that is what Elvain have done. That Mayor is a vassal of the Samanids and is a Manichean Soghdian.
Will there also be random Nestorian barony level characters Elvain?
Changing the religious setup or adding a minority mechanic is a bit beyond the scope of SWMH, so there is not really any other way to portray minorities than through random Barony characters
Apart from the suggested modern Uzbek name for them (Qoraxoniylar), another option (but possible less valid given the different Turkic language branch) is to use the modern Turkish name - Karahanlılar.
We have a province which was mostly inhabited by tribal Turks, but there were reportedly urban Soghdian communities which followed other religions like Nestorian or Manichean. Given the tools we have in CK2 and especially in SWMH which doesn't change game mechanics and its scope only is history and culture files, not even religions. What can we do? Well, not much, I admit, at least for a player, who cannot play inland republics and especialy not inland city-baronies. But at least we can add flavour this way.
Thus, for instance, the Yaghma Yabghu in Kashgar (vassal of the Qarluq Khan) owns 2 Buddhist provinces and has 5 barony level vasals. 2, the religious ones are Tengri like the Yabghu, another 3 are Soghdian mayors - 2 out of them Manichean and one Nestorian. Each with an heir, so they are given some chance to survive and perhaps gain some influence. This is the only way how we can handle religious minorities. I think that it looks like pretty good religious mixture, doesn't it? Probably not what you might have expected, but the question is, what else could we do?
I am also still considering to make some Soghdian characters a dehqans/ "city" governors of an entire province somewhere in Ferghána or in Otrár, who knows. After all, it might help the Afshins? Who knows.
He's not really a Samanid vassal, but the rest is obviously correct
And the other part has just been answered, I guess. There will also be one not really random... well, we certainly know that by 892 there was a nestorian church in Talas, so...
that's another possibility.. maybe I might make some hybrid form. I certainly prefer to spell the "Kh" sound as "kh" rather than "x" even though I know this is the commonly used scientific transcription, but I'm little affraid that for a normal user it might be a bit misleading (like spelling Tokharians with "ch" - there should be the "kh" sound from khan, rather than "ch" sound from cheers)
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Given that Qarakhanid is a combination of the Old Turkic "Kara (qara)" meaning black and "Kaghan (qaghan)" from which we derive the word "khan", Karakhagan(l)ilar seems to be appropriate, albeit a little long
Imperfect transliteration aside, the modern Turkish one is probably the closer of the two.
Yes, that's correct. In addition, just to give more context, the -lı suffix in Modern Turkish is used to denote identity as in Karahan-lı means someone from the Karahan dynasty (In the same manner as Selçuklu -- from the Selçuk dynasty).
I'd like to point out that there's some thousand years of divergence between Turkish and Uzbek, so what's true for one is not necessarily true for other. The language of Karahanids, Khakani or Karahanid Uighur was of Karluk-Uighur group, closer to modern Uighur and Karluk dialects of Uzbek than to any Oguz language.
That said, Uzbek latin script is pretty misleading.
That said, Uzbek latin script is pretty misleading.
We have a province which was mostly inhabited by tribal Turks, but there were reportedly urban Soghdian communities which followed other religions like Nestorian or Manichean. Given the tools we have in CK2 and especially in SWMH which doesn't change game mechanics and its scope only is history and culture files, not even religions. What can we do? Well, not much, I admit, at least for a player, who cannot play inland republics and especialy not inland city-baronies. But at least we can add flavour this way.
Thus, for instance, the Yaghma Yabghu in Kashgar (vassal of the Qarluq Khan) owns 2 Buddhist provinces and has 5 barony level vasals. 2, the religious ones are Tengri like the Yabghu, another 3 are Soghdian mayors - 2 out of them Manichean and one Nestorian. Each with an heir, so they are given some chance to survive and perhaps gain some influence. This is the only way how we can handle religious minorities. I think that it looks like pretty good religious mixture, doesn't it? Probably not what you might have expected, but the question is, what else could we do?
I am also still considering to make some Soghdian characters a dehqans/ "city" governors of an entire province somewhere in Ferghána or in Otrár, who knows. After all, it might help the Afshins? Who knows.
He's not really a Samanid vassal, but the rest is obviously correct
And the other part has just been answered, I guess. There will also be one not really random... well, we certainly know that by 892 there was a nestorian church in Talas, so...
that's another possibility.. maybe I might make some hybrid form. I certainly prefer to spell the "Kh" sound as "kh" rather than "x" even though I know this is the commonly used scientific transcription, but I'm little affraid that for a normal user it might be a bit misleading (like spelling Tokharians with "ch" - there should be the "kh" sound from khan, rather than "ch" sound from cheers)
Looked like the Samanid CoA, my bad :blush: It's nice to hear that they are even given heirs.
so what would be the best then?
Qarakhanlilar/Karakhanlilar or just Karakhanlar, or...?
I'd suggest Qorokho/anilar, to both reflect "o" instead of "a", typical for Uzbeks and Uighurs and use "kh" instead of "x", so normal person can read it correctly.