SWMH 936: Development Thread

[elvain]

If I remember correctly, Boleslav conquered Moravia only after the battle of the Lech.
I'd suggest transferring the already existing vassal to Hungary and giving Olomouc to a random Moravský noble and transferring it as well. I'd suggest the same treatment for Krakow and Upper Silesia.
Edit: I checked, I do indeed remember correctly.
Edit2: What happened to the Slavníkovci dynasty? This is still before the infamous Massacre of Libice, so they should still be pretty powerful, I'd give them at least Hradec and Kladsko.

Already asked Elvain on the Slavnikovci, he councilled caution. And i've followed his suggestion.

And the Moravian/Southern Polish setup is actually Elvains own creation, from before he left the team.

You're both right.
Boleslav has indeed conquered those parts later, and yes, this was from a large part my design and I advised caution about Slavnikids/Slavnikovci.

Maybe the setup back from times when we planned 955 bookmark doesn't really fit this one. I decided to use it for vanilla for gameplay reasons to Give Boleslav and Bohemia a fighting chance against Germany. But since SWMH cares more about actual accuracy, this it could perhaps be as @Wenceslaus II. suggested in case of limiting Boleslav's power.
I'm not sure though about making Moravia Hungarian vasal. I would either make Moravia completely independent or tributary.

When it comes to Slavnikids, their territorial domain has been greatly exaggerated by older Czech historians. They certainly held relatively many castles around the country, but they certainly did not own larger half of Bohemia like we are taught at schools, and neither were they a challenge for Premyslid princeship. Even at the peak of Slavnikid power the position of Premyslids as the rulers of Bohemia was unchallenged (save for various members of the dynasty who fought against each other).
That said, Slavnikids should hold province of Hradec, which was the core of their dominions. Giving them one more province (Kladsko?) is IMHO neither mandatory nor impossible. Giving them more than 2 provinces would IMHO be very wrong, although it would convene to (English) Wikipedia article. Czech Wikipedia (unlike the English version) already includes the critical review of those older theories about their exaggerated power.

Sorry for causing the confusion

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

I would either make Moravia completely independent or tributary.

I'd go with tributary.
But in that case I'd suggest doing the same for Nitra.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

When it comes to Slavnikids, their territorial domain has been greatly exaggerated by older Czech historians. They certainly held relatively many castles around the country, but they certainly did not own larger half of Bohemia like we are taught at schools, and neither were they a challenge for Premyslid princeship. Even at the peak of Slavnikid power the position of Premyslids as the rulers of Bohemia was unchallenged (save for various members of the dynasty who fought against each other).
That said, Slavnikids should hold province of Hradec, which was the core of their dominions. Giving them one more province (Kladsko?) is IMHO neither mandatory nor impossible.

The fact that the Přemyslids allowed st. Vojtěch to become the Bishop of Prague, instead of their own candidate, indicates, at least in my humble opinion, that their power must have been quite considerable.
I believe they were closely related to Přemyslids though and probably seen as trustworthy by Bohemian rulers, which allowed them to hold that power. They should definitely hold Hradec, and giving them Kladsko probably won't hurt anyone either, it's not like there's anyone else to give it to anyway.

 

[elvain]

I'd go with tributary.
But in that case I'd suggest doing the same for Nitra.

Yes for "Slovak" Moravians/Sloviens being Magyar tributaries.
As for Moravia - the reason why I would prefer independence is to give Bohemia a chance to conquer it (or vice versa ). If we make Moravia Magyar tributary or vasal, we cement Magyar dominance over Moravia, which wasn't a thing at that time.
As far as my knowledge goes, Moravian nobility of early 10th century was able to have independent international policy. Even at the time of Polish Boleslaw the Great Moravians acted independently and to protect their country they even organized a military campaign in Austria - independently on Boleslaw.

The fact that the Přemyslids allowed st. Vojtěch to become the Bishop of Prague, instead of their own candidate, indicates, at least in my humble opinion, that their power must have been quite considerable.
I believe they were closely related to Přemyslids though and probably seen as trustworthy by Bohemian rulers, which allowed them to hold that power. They should definitely hold Hradec, and giving them Kladsko probably won't hurt anyone either, it's not like there's anyone else to give it to anyway.

Their power was still dependent on what they got from Premyslids (that's how the Bohemian state worked since Boleslav... and Slavnikids were members of this post-Boleslavid nobility, most probably not local princes who pre-dated Bohemian unification. That's why they were given so important posessions). Hence even their considerable power was not that considerable.
As for Kladsko - could be. You could still leave it to Premyslids, but I admit it would partly go against the idea that Slavnikids were there to hold and protect the eastern route.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

(or vice versa ).

Well, if you put it that way. Fine, I'm sold.

Their power was still dependent on what they got from Premyslids (that's how the Bohemian state worked since Boleslav... and Slavnikids were members of this post-Boleslavid nobility, most probably not local princes who pre-dated Bohemian unification. That's why they were given so important posessions). Hence even their considerable power was not that considerable.
As for Kladsko - could be. You could still leave it to Premyslids, but I admit it would partly go against the idea that Slavnikids were there to hold and protect the eastern route.

Yup, agree with all of that.
Although, I'd say we both have different opinions on what qualifies as considerable power.

 

[theKing1988]

So far i've given the Slavnikids, Kladsko, as per Elvains suggestion. I PM'd with him on the subject a while back.

And as for the changes to Nitra and Moravia, i tend to agree with making them tributaries, rather than outright vassals of the Hungarians. Would be wrong to extend the Hungarians too much, their Confederacy were pretty decentralized before Lechfeld as far as i can see. A case could be made for Moravian independence i guess? Is there any recorded Moravian rulers after the Mojmirids fell?

What about Southern Poland? Tributaries to Boleslav? Or independent?

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

So far i've given the Slavnikids, Kladsko, as per Elvains suggestion. I PM'd with him on the subject a while back.

And as for the changes to Nitra and Moravia, i tend to agree with making them tributaries, rather than outright vassals of the Hungarians. Would be wrong to extend the Hungarians too much, their Confederacy were pretty decentralized before Lechfeld as far as i can see.

What about Southern Poland? Tributaries to Boleslav? Or independent?

Well, if you're going to make Moravia independent, I'd make them independent as well. Otherwise I'd make them hungarian tributaries.

 

[theKing1988]

And no tributary relationships with anyone?

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

And no tributary relationships with anyone?

I personally would make Moravia, Nitra and southern Poland tributaries of Hungary.
Elvain proposed to make Moravia independent, if you decide to do so, I'd suggest making southern Poland independent as well.
As for the ruler of south Poland, I'd propose to give a random polish noble the titular duchy of Vistulans and the counties of Krakow and Sacz, and give him counts of Opole and Raciborz as vassals.

 

[elvain]

And as for the changes to Nitra and Moravia, i tend to agree with making them tributaries, rather than outright vassals of the Hungarians. Would be wrong to extend the Hungarians too much, their Confederacy were pretty decentralized before Lechfeld as far as i can see. A case could be made for Moravian independence i guess? Is there any recorded Moravian rulers after the Mojmirids fell?

What about Southern Poland? Tributaries to Boleslav? Or independent?

Sadly, there are no recorder rulers of Moravia all the way until Premyslids took it. Generally this era is empty space in recorded history of Moravia, so everything is up to what we prefer as design, how do we believe it fits the era the best.
Hence, as discussed above, I would slightly tend to prefer Moravian independence. A short note from Austria mentions their independent military expedition in times when Boleslaw the Great controlled Moravia, hence I would suppose there could be some Moravian nobility capable of some actions even after the fall of Moravia (although this expedition is almost 70-90 years after 936. In 936 Moravia just a generation after the fall of Mojmírids could be in total chaos, but we kno wnothing).

When it comes to southern Poland - it probably shouldn't have stronger ties to Bohemia than Moravia. So if we make Moravia independent, then southern Poland should be independent too. Pretty much like @Wenceslaus II. proposed above.

The other possibility of course is tributaries of Boleslav of Bohemia. The main reasoning behind this possibility would be to give Boleslav little more power, although we know that at this point, he still didin't holdany souvereignity over them yet.

As I said earlier, pretty much everything is on the table. It all depends on what design you prefer:
1) most historically accurate would IMHO be independent Moravia, independent southern Poland, Slovak Sloviens as Magyar tributaries or possibly also independent. This one leaves everything pretty much open, including Moravian conquest of Bohemia and restoration of Great Moravia, as well as Magyar conquest of Moravia
2) design to give Bohemia more power is making them Bohemian tributaries - this might pre-simulate the later expansion by Boleslav.
3) design which would give the Magyars even more power would make Moravians Magyar tributaries. This would reflect the power of Magyars and could be also very historical (there is high probability that the post-Mojmírid Moravians had to pay some sort of tribute to the Magyars), but with this setup we risk that Moravia will ahistorically fall under too strong Magyar/Hungarian influence. Also in this setup I'd make southern Poland independent.

 

[Censor96x]

Can we have some sneak peek to Italy?
Also, is Aleramo Aleramici in the mod? I would really like so since he is also in vanilla
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleramo,_Marquess_of_Montferrat

 

[theKing1988]

Aleramo is there, he is a vassal of Berengar d'Ivrea

 

[sevens.exposed]

I'm pretty curious as to why the map texture looks different to the one found in my version of HIP, the one in these screenshots has bigger border lines and more defined lakes.. What gives?

 

[theKing1988]

Its standalone SWMH. LTM changes both the borders, the terrain, lakes etc.

Its a screenie taken from my in-development version of SWMH-alone, without any other modules on.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Possible for a closer look on the British Isles setup?

 

[Chazn2]

This is a crazy amount of work, much respect.

 

[MajorBandgeek]

Is there any chance we could see a close-up of Morocco? Particularly how you'll be covering the Barghawata heresy.

 

[theKing1988]

Britain as requested.

936 is the hey-day of Æthelstan Half-King and his siblings. I haven't found anything for York, so its under the King

 

[Harald Fairhair]

According to Saga Eirik Blodaxe became king of Jorvik under Æthelstan (as a peace agreement between him and his brother Håkon) untill he died in 939 and came on the bad side of his brothers. However it is not possible to date when Eirik became king under Æthelstan. Eirik was expelled from Norway in 935 and went to the Orkneys and became it's king (possible also the Hebrides also as stated in Caithréim Chellacháin Chaisil). Eirik most likely might have not become sub-king of York before 937 after battle of Brunaburh. Might add Eirik have two sons at this point, Gamle Guttorm (oldest sibling with exception to Ragnvald who was murdered by Egill Skallagrimsson) and Harald Greycloak (born between 930-932).

With this in mind I think it works fine with Æthelstan having York.

 

[Ese Khan]

Is there any chance we could see a close-up of Morocco? Particularly how you'll be covering the Barghawata heresy.

Morocco is fairly fragmented, with some Idrisids and Miknasa being Umayyad tributaries while Banu Ifran and the Idrisids in Fes are Fatimid tributaries. The Barghawata hold the territory that they do in later decades.