SWMH 936: Development Thread

[The Great Dictator]

Speaking of Bulgaria, will we possibly be seeing some events for the spread of Bogomilism there, and/or some already converted areas? Not much is known of Bogomil, but it seems he started preaching during the Peter I's rule, so 936 wouldn't be a bad date for it.

 

[diiter]

he did the Aachen thing a fair few years after the start date

No, according to Widukind it happened at the 7th of August 936 when he was placed at charlemagnes throne in the Aachen Munster.

Where Otto was coronated as the Emperor in 962, shouldn´t really influence the 936 setup. Lotharingias rebellion ended in 939, long before the coronation in 962

But it was his election and coronation as king that took place in Aachen and happened exactly at the new HIP starting year, so it should defnitely be considered leaving Aachen in the Kingdom of Germany.

I agree leaving Lotharingia independent, just the county of Aachen should be in Ottos realm.

 

[majesty8]

Abkhazia took over Kartli in 904, it was ruled by Abkhazian prince Leon (later king Leon III) from 926 to 957. Kakheti was also vassalized around that time. On the other hand, most of Tao-Klarjeti should be independent.
Do you plan to divide Georgia into several small de-jure kingdoms like England - Abkhazia/Tao-Klarjeti/Kakheti-Hereti, with some special condition to form Georgia? Otherwise Georgia might be formed too early, considering Abkhazia already controls most of the land or close to it.

 

[theKing1988]

Abkhazia took over Kartli in 904, it was ruled by Abkhazian prince Leon (later king Leon III) from 926 to 957. Kakheti was also vassalized around that time. On the other hand, most of Tao-Klarjeti should be independent.
Do you plan to divide Georgia into several small de-jure kingdoms like England - Abkhazia/Tao-Klarjeti/Kakheti-Hereti, with some special condition to form Georgia? Otherwise Georgia might be formed too early, considering Abkhazia already controls most of the land or close to it.

The screenies are still wip setups

The England treatment won't prevent Georgia from being formed too early. Abkhazia will be able to form Georgia from Day 1, with the England treatment, unless i make the region, that controls when you can form Georgia abnormally large, and if i did that, what would be the point

 

[majesty8]

The England treatment won't prevent Georgia from being formed too early. Abkhazia will be able to form Georgia from Day 1, with the England treatment, unless i make the region, that controls when you can form Georgia abnormally large, and if i did that, what would be the point

That's why I mentioned special conditions for the decision - e.g. "own 2/3 kingdom titles + have X prestige", with creation requirements of kingdoms requiring to own their namesake duchy titles (e.g. Kakheti-Hereri would require both Kakheti and Hereti); in 936 (and 955) Abkhazia would hold its usual duchies, Kartli and Kakheti (except Tiflis), but without Hereti it will be unable to form Kakheti-Hereti, and thus unable to form Georgia.

 

[theKing1988]

That's why I mentioned special conditions for the decision - e.g. "own 2/3 kingdom titles + have X prestige", with creation requirements of kingdoms requiring to own their namesake duchy titles (e.g. Kakheti-Hereri would require both Kakheti and Hereti); in 936 (and 955) Abkhazia would hold its usual duchies, Kartli and Kakheti (except Tiflis), but without Hereti it will be unable to form Kakheti-Hereti, and thus unable to form Georgia.

Too many hoops for my taste. Especially considering Abkhazia will be able to circumvent everyone of them apart from the prestige one, within a couple of years. And it didn't take a particularly prestigious Georgian ruler, to unify Abkhazia and Kartli. It took a simple inheritance.

If i give Georgia the England treatment, it will be based on something much simpler. For now, unless someone convinces me otherwise, i'm inclined to just keep Georgia de-jure and accept Abkhazia regularly forming Georgia from 936.

 

[majesty8]

Too many hoops for my taste. Especially considering Abkhazia will be able to circumvent everyone of them apart from the prestige one, within a couple of years. And it didn't take a particularly prestigious Georgian ruler, to unify Abkhazia and Kartli. It took a simple inheritance.

936/955 Abkhazia would still need either Hereti or Klarjeti, which would take longer than a couple of years (for the AI) considering it would have no de-jure incentive to just conquer them.
By the time Bagrat III inherited Kartli and Tao-Klarjeti, he ruled Abkhazia for 30 years, successfully crushed multiple rebellions and received the honorary title for Kouropalates from ERE; I'd argue he had more than enough prestige. And while assembling the various titles was a matter of inheritance, declaring oneself King of All Georgian Lands - including the still independent Kakheti and Hereti - would definitely require a notable personality.

EDIT: Tao-Klarjeti and Kartli could be united as Iberia (kartvelta samepo/Kingdom of Kartveli), requiring Klarjeti and Kartli; Georgia requirement could then be simplified to Iberia + another Georgian kingdom + prestige. With 936/955 Abkhazia holding 3/6 counties of Iberia (with the kingdom title held by Tao-Klarjeti rulers) and 2/4 counties of Kakheti-Hereti, special duchy requirements can be dropped, although I'd still advise them at least for Kakheti-Hereti (both for historical reasons and to prevent Abkhazia from quickly gaining it via Tiflis.)
(EDIT2: It might actually be 2/6 of Iberia, with Samtskhe under Tao-Klarjeti control as well.)

This method might not be optimal, but IMO a complicated-but-not-unhistorical solution is better than no solution whatsoever.

 

[zijistark]

This method might not be optimal, but IMO a complicated-but-not-unhistorical solution is better than no solution whatsoever.

When you're not responsible for implementing it or maintaining it for years, then I can see why you might have that opinion. Submods are always an option. @theKing1988 already said he didn't want to do it.

 

[D.Knight]

It probably wouldn't be worth the effort but are there any events for my boy Brian Boru considering he would be born no more than five years after game start (which admittedly is a lot) or is that more EMF's territory?

 

[theKing1988]

It probably wouldn't be worth the effort but are there any events for my boy Brian Boru considering he would be born no more than five years after game start (which admittedly is a lot) or is that more EMF's territory?

It will be more likely to happen for the 993 bookmark that will be released first

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Zoomed out screenie of out current setup, as Leri_well requested

If I remember correctly, Boleslav conquered Moravia only after the battle of the Lech.
I'd suggest transferring the already existing vassal to Hungary and giving Olomouc to a random Moravský noble and transferring it as well. I'd suggest the same treatment for Krakow and Upper Silesia.
Edit: I checked, I do indeed remember correctly.
Edit2: What happened to the Slavníkovci dynasty? This is still before the infamous Massacre of Libice, so they should still be pretty powerful, I'd give them at least Hradec and Kladsko.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

If I remember correctly, Boleslav conquered Moravia only after the battle of the Lech.
I'd suggest transferring the already existing vassal to Hungary and giving Olomouc to a random Moravský noble and transferring it as well. I'd suggest the same treatment for Krakow and Upper Silesia.
Edit: I checked, I do indeed remember correctly.
Edit2: What happened to the Slavníkovci dynasty? This is still before the infamous Massacre of Libice, so they should still be pretty powerful, I'd give them at least Hradec and Kladsko.

You can see on wkipedia how the slavnikovic territory looked like.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

You can see on wkipedia how the slavnikovic territory looked like.

Don't need Wikipedia to tell you it was the eastern half of Bohemia.

 

[KingHaydenIII]

You can see on wkipedia how the slavnikovic territory looked like.

Wikipedia isn't your friend.

 

[theKing1988]

If I remember correctly, Boleslav conquered Moravia only after the battle of the Lech.
I'd suggest transferring the already existing vassal to Hungary and giving Olomouc to a random Moravský noble and transferring it as well. I'd suggest the same treatment for Krakow and Upper Silesia.
Edit: I checked, I do indeed remember correctly.
Edit2: What happened to the Slavníkovci dynasty? This is still before the infamous Massacre of Libice, so they should still be pretty powerful, I'd give them at least Hradec and Kladsko.

Already asked Elvain on the Slavnikovci, he councilled caution. And i've followed his suggestion.

And the Moravian/Southern Polish setup is actually Elvains own creation, from before he left the team.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Already asked Elvain on the Slavnikovci, he councilled caution. And i've followed his suggestion.

Wait, so what did you do? I'm pretty sure he wouldn't tell you to remove them completely.

And the Moravian/Southern Polish setup is actually Elvains own creation, from before he left the team.

Well yeah, but I'm pretty sure he did it like that for balance reasons or something like that, if you were to ask him, I'm certain he'd tell you it's not historically accurate. I thought that's what the mod is about.

 

[theKing1988]

Wait, so what did you do? I'm pretty sure he wouldn't tell you to remove them completely.

Well yeah, but I'm pretty sure he did it like that for balance reasons or something like that, if you were to ask him, I'm certain he'd tell you it's not historically accurate. I thought that's what the mod is about.

They have 1 province

I'll need to read up on Bohemia and Poland then, i just left it be when i did all the rest of the map, because i knew Elvain did that bit

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

They have 1 province

Which one? Just Kladsko? Seems kinda unfair to them.

I'll need to read up on Bohemia and Poland then, i just left it be when i did all the rest of the map, because i knew Elvain did that bit

Yeah, I talked about him with it, in his words (translated) - it's moved in Boleslav's favor by a few decades.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

I'll need to read up on Bohemia and Poland then

Well, you don't have to read anything, here's a passage from a book by František Dvorník - The making of Central and Eastern Europe.
It actually came out in English, so if you want to read it, I can recommend it.
Anyways, I took the liberty to translate the following bit (I only own a Czech copy)
"It seems, that after the defeat of the Magyars {meaning the battle of Lech 955}, Boleslav continued the war on his own and forced the Magyars out of Moravia, which they held since the fall of Great Moravia. With success he continued to the northeast and southeast, and managed to add not only a signifact portion of today's Slovakia, beyond the river Váh to the czech realm, but also the area around the upper Vistula river, including Krakow. Even the Slavic tribes in Silesia had to recognize his authority. And so Boleslav became the founder of the czech state, the third Slavic realm in the space of central and eastern Europe along with Poland and the Kievan Rus."

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sla...ký_stát_v_X._století_za_Boleslava_I._a_II.jpg

I think thats pretty accurate. These white croats competed over the control of bohemia.

Anyone opposing the fact that slavnikids were white croats?