SWMH 936: Development Thread

[theKing1988]

IBERIA:

The North of Iberia is actually in a release-ready state by now as you can see. The south is split. The Middle and North March is finished (Qandi and Tuyyibi) and the area around Lisbon is finished too. The rest is basically holdovers from 867, because 936 needs holders. I´m not entirely satisfied with the level of placeholders that Vanilla uses. You´ll see that repeated

 

[theKing1988]

GERMANY:

As you can see in Germany there is regions that are a bit devoid of vassals. Specifically looking at Saxony, Swabia and Bavaria. Its again down to placeholders, but rather than ficitional placeholders, the characters vanilla is using is not easily placed within a province, so i haven´t really decided whether to use most of them. Apart from internally, i feel like i´ve managed to get the external shape down quite good. Perhaps Saarbrucken should be moved to Germany and Aachen to Lotharingen, but that´s whats left

 

[theKing1988]

DENMARK AND SWEDEN:

Denmark is mostly ready, the last holdover is really the little Frisian duchy. Its running on a placeholder right now. Denmark has been split as you can see. Denmark in 936 were actually divided between the Knytlings in the West and the Skjoldungs, or Akras as Vanilla has inexplicably renamed them, in the East. The two were eventually united through marriage diplomacy. Gorm the Old had married a Skjoldung, Thyra Danebod, and their son Harald Bluetooth inherited both realms as per the marriage agreement.

Sweden is split into several realms, following the Vanilla lead. Royal power is not even really in its infancy yet in Sweden, and the regions were still following their own directions in 936.

 

[theKing1988]

Hungary:

Hungary is mostly ready as well. The work that remains to be done is Ungvar in the Northeast, i haven´t quite decided what to do with that yet, and Csanad or Temesvar in the southeast, Vanillas decision to go with Glad seems an erroneous one to me, but i haven´t found an alternative yet. In the same screenie you can see that Croatia hasn´t been touched yet either. The Slavonian duchy is basically a placeholder from 867, because 936 doesn´t have holders yet. Same goes for the Bosnian provinces inside Croatia.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Before being picky I would say this looks wonderful. Skaane seems acording to legend being ruled by Strut-Harald (whos father is Gorm the old in a source, but doubtful) who is father to the Jarls Sigvald and Torkjell the Tall. While Slesvig was ruled by Gnupa (of a Swedish dynasti) in 934, he was followed by Siggtrygg who according the Hedeby-stones died around 938, but it is possible the vikingking Siggtrygg who was killed in 943 was the same person. Tyra is in most sources described as daughter of king Harald Klak (first mention in 812 and last mention 852), but it seem impossible that she could be mother for Harald Bluetooth. Harald the Younger (nephew of Klak) died in 863 seems also doubtful. Saxo mention Gorm the English who rule both in Denmark and England (most likely East Anglia) who lost his English kingdom and was followed by a Harald who again is followed by Gorm the Old. In some of the sources Horda-Knut (Gorm the Olds father) had relation with tributary-kings of Himbre (located in Jylland) and was fostered with a Gorm the Mighty as brother and were named after his father Knut the Foundling. Ragnar Lodbroks Saga, Tåtten om Ragnars sønner and Saxo Gramaticus and others mentions Gorms predeseccors as kings in Sjælland.

 

[theKing1988]

According to more modern Scholarship, the Hedeby-stones is actually dated to approximately 920, which means Widukinds "Saxon Chronicle" is wrong, when it dates Gnupas death to 934 and Siggtrygg as his successor.

Also, as i´ve stated before, but i can do it again. Modern Danish historians universally rejects the idea of Strut-Harald being the son of Gorm the Old, so we should obviously not make him the son of Gorm.

As for Thyra, yes, she is described as the daughter of Harald Klak in sources, but modern Danish historians rejects it, because it is chronologically impossible. As there isn´t any evidence in the sources to suggest she isn´t the mother of Harald Bluetooth and Knud Danaast, sons of Gorm, Modern Danish historians have placed her as the daughter of Harald Klak´s great-grandson.

We´ve chosen the situation that we deem most likely and which is backed by modern-day Danish scholarship.

 

[theKing1988]

The ERE:

As you can see, the Empire still has a lot of work left, hence all the "of xxxx" characters. I´m not following Vanillas lead and making 5 Maleinos brothers title holders in Central Anatolia, there really isn´t a basis for making the family remotely that powerful. The Vanilla Empire, is a bit of mess in 936, but the 930íes are a bit of a dark hole when it comes to info on the Empire anyway, so Vanilla is a bit excused.

 

[theKing1988]

Kievan Rus:

I´ve decided to go with a tributary setup for the Kievan Rus. I still need to find something for Smolensk, but it seems pretty good to me to have the Drevlians, Severians, Krivichi and Dregovichi as Tributaries of Kiev. I´m still pondering whether i should add Sveneld, the famous Varangian, as an early placeholder in one of the Southern provinces

 

[theKing1988]

Algeria:

As you can see, Algeria is still missing some work.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

Kievan Rus:

I´ve decided to go with a tributary setup for the Kievan Rus. I still need to find something for Smolensk, but it seems pretty good to me to have the Drevlians, Severians, Krivichi and Dregovichi as Tributaries of Kiev. I´m still pondering whether i should add Sveneld, the famous Varangian, as an early placeholder in one of the Southern provinces

The problem with tributarys is that the ai will never manage to integrate them...

 

[Harald Fairhair]

According to more modern Scholarship, the Hedeby-stones is actually dated to approximately 920, which means Widukinds "Saxon Chronicle" is wrong, when it dates Gnupas death to 934 and Siggtrygg as his successor.

Gnupa did not in the Saxon Chronicle die but had to pay tribute to King Henry the Fowler when he invaded. Strange that the chronicles are wrong considering Widukind lived very near this time (he could be wrong of course). Do you have a link to the Hedeby-stones which states that they are from 920? I've liked to read about it

I mention Strut-Harald not because of his most unlikey conection with Gorm, but as Skaane seems to have been independant untill Harald Bluetooth (acording the Jelling Stones) conquerd all of Denmark.

Another small detail i notice is that Gudrød and Tryggvi of Viken is christians (and Sigurd of Hringriki i guess?). Theres no mention of these were christians, and Hakon the Good seemed limited to Western Norway. The first ruler in Viken to be christian seems to be Harald Grenski under Bluetooth who norwegian scholars credit the beginning of christanization of Viken.

 

[Choorus]

I am teased terribly with everyting around Poland and Pomerania/Wendland having been shown, but Poland remains!

 

[theKing1988]

POLAND:

Lets make Choorus happy. A little look at the dynasties in Poland.

 

[Tragliano]

Poland, logically, should be more united in 936. In 966 it was already unified except for Lesser Poland.

 

[theKing1988]

This is a sub-realm dynasty screenie

Poland is split into 4 and then has the South under Bohemian control. (You can see that i bit more clearly if you peek at the other screenies i´ve posted, from a realm perspective

But if you have any info on the Piasts subjugating the Lendians, Silesians or Masovians, before i´ve moved them under Piast rule, i´ll change the setup.

 

[Tragliano]

There were most probably no Masovians or Silesians per se in this historical setup, so that's all just more or less correct fantasy, as usual with Slavic countries in this period and Paradox games What I say is that in 966 territories of Masovians, Silesians, Polans and Lendians (but not Cracow and souther Lesser Poland) was under control on Mieszko I already, when he accepted Christianity in Latin rite. Such partition 30 years before that is plausible, but not likely. We also have some dendrochronological data from the period which suggests that early Piast state rose to power in '30s and '40s, with new castles being built all over the place (Giecz, Grzybowo). That's all of my argument.

 

[Amyntas]

I am hungry for my 936-era Eastern Romans. Keep at it!

 

[Choorus]

One interesting thing is that we don't know whether Lendians (Lyakhovich Eastern part) were at that time West Slavs that have later got Orientalised under Ruthenian rule or Eastern Slavs from the very beginning who got Westernised. Their linguistic and material culture charcteristics show an exact mix of Western and Eastern Slavic influences.

 

[konrad901901]

@Tragliano in 966 Mieszko only held Greater Poland, Kuyavia, Mazovia and Sieradz-Łęczyca. In 970-980 He gained Sandomierz with Cherven Castles (which he lost in 981). And around 990 he took control of Lesser Poland and Silesia, so this setup is mostly accurate.

 

[Leri_weill]

So I suppose that only the areas you've shown have been worked on atm? Still, it is promising and I am looking forward to this starting date with HIP